Need some (DW) Help...

[Prot]

Okay I'm probably going to ask some stupid questions here, but I have a good handle on my Ravenwing but I have no clue even after 2-3  games with DW.

 

So let me get the dumb questions out of the way...

 

- Is it always best to take Belial in shield/Hammer gear?

 

-  at 1850, I have immense trouble fitting it together. How do you fit a banner in AND include Knights AND not mess up your troops?

 

- How do you contend with the balance of things that MUST start on the table?

 

-  Dreadnoughts... I feel these are mandatory, but maybe not?

 

- Landraider. Competitively speaking, is it worth the points?

 

- HQ: Is there any reason to take a DW command squad if you don't take a banner?

 

I have a few more Q's and I just bought a lot more Termies but I'm afraid to put them together.... Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Interrogator Stobz]

1. Belial with SoS is great in builds with DWKs or TH/SSs

2. One or the other is enough, you are right that you need troops.

3. LRCs and techie/Libby toting PFGs (March is my hero).

4. Maybe not, I love them but they eat into troops points.

5. Yup, worth it to deliver Nators to the face.

6. Nope.

2c worth

[Brother dean]

Dreadnoughts are not manditory.  

LRCs are always worth the points.

My next DW list is going to be March's 2 LRC list...

[[TA]Typher]

I haven't added to it for a month or two due to starting a new job, but the Deathwing:Tactica has some basic pointers for you.

 

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/

[Chaplain Lucifer]

For me DWK trump DWcommnd squad with banner.

Dreadnoughts only get cool points and not much else. For dreads to be sucessful you have to field 3 and some other armor as well.

Belial with SoS is a valid choice, if you have the right metagame for him.

[Garath]

  Landa raider crusaders are good,  they protect the troops inside .  Interesting options include both delivering them to the face ,  keeping them inside if you've killed all enemy AT units . 

  Other creative things are tank shocking the enemy to leave them bunched up to be flamed/templated to death by terminators.  

 

 Plus the sight of two LR advancing into the fire is Awe inspiring stuff og Legends

 

  

 Belial with Sword vs Belial with TH/SS.   Not too sure TH/SS is the best option anymore.  Sword has it's upsides:

 

- you can assign wounds with SB if you hit on a 5

- Sword itself lets Belial hit on his I, and wounds things on a 2+  The Ap is 3.  This makes it the best option vs MC in our codex -as they hava a 3+ save in mostz cases.  That way Belial might kill a previously wounded MC before it kills a couple of Termnators.

 

   DEathwing command squad, with or without the banner(s) is a bad idea.  I don't know why they made them Hq instead of troops (probably to sell more Deathwing Knights)  .

  If you take the command squad , you've just spent 300 pts on a non scoring unit in a list low on scoring units. Think about it, 

 

- 2 land raiders, Belial and Command squad

 

  We, we already spent a 1000 pts and have no scoring units to speak of.  Except in Big guns never tire.

 

   Actually , not a lot has changed for DW armies going from 5th to 6th ed.  PFG behind LR will be a classic of this edition- but that's about it as far as creative thinking goes for us (by the way great idea March!) .

 

   5th edition DW armies sported some non DW supporting elements like predator tanks and Typhoon land speeders.

 

   That is still a solid idea

[Prot]

Thanks for the advice.
 

 

I haven't added to it for a month or two due to starting a new job, but the Deathwing:Tactica has some basic pointers for you.

 

http://www.bolterand...thwing-tactica/

 

^This is really great thanks.  It filled a few holes for me.

 

 

1. Belial with SoS is great in builds with DWKs or TH/SSs

2. One or the other is enough, you are right that you need troops.

3. LRCs and techie/Libby toting PFGs (March is my hero).

4. Maybe not, I love them but they eat into troops points.

5. Yup, worth it to deliver Nators to the face. 

6. Nope.

 

This^ seems to be the general consensus. After all these responses, I had some more general Q's. I apologize in advance if some of this is covered elsewhere but these questions get a bit more in depth with thoughts to specific strategies and listbuilding for competitive playstyle.

 

1. If I put the PFG on a Lib Termie and put him in a LR with a squad of Deathknights, does it still work? Does this make any sense? Or will I just confer a good bonus to my opponent later on in CC?

 

2. The Issue of Troops. In many of my standard lists (even Ravenwing) I have grown accustomed to a combat squaded 10 man, Tactical squad with dual Plasma on a Bastion w/Quad. This has acted as my 'homebase' and I often used it in Ravenguard because of 2 reasons: a troop homebase is good in an advancing army, and 2 it is a cheap way to get scoring and an anti-flyer mechanism in the list. Would you recommend against this with Deathwing?

 

If so..... what do you do about flyers? Ignore them?

 

3. Dread. I'm thinking of a Ven dread in a Pod w/MM for anti vehicle cannon balling, but it gets pricey. Anyone find success with this kind of unit? or am I better off spending the points elsewhere?

 

4. I have a box of Knights put together but two boxes of DA Termies I haven't done anything with for fear of putting them together wrong... so what I was thinking is this:   Tactical Termie Load out. I'm thinking 2 hammers, and a Rocket Launder per 5 man squad. Does this sound okay?

 

5. I love the idea of taking a Landraider Crusader. It would seem this unit with Librarian, accounting for 3 units on table gives me some leeway for reserves. Is this pretty common?

 

My timing isn't great.... as a sidenote 3 of my regular playing group are into new Nids. And Mawloc's are all the rage. The idea of facing 2-3 Mawlocs with Deathwing is certainly an ugly proposition but I stilll want to give it a shot! Thanks again for the responses.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

1. No, by doing that you give inv to your opponent, PFG doesn't work inside a LR. What people here usually do is run a librarian or techamrine on bike with PFG, the preference going to the librarian.

 

2. In a DW army you usually dont have a home base. Since it's a move and shoot army you will be compelled to advance while shooting.

 

3. for the price of that dread you can have Land speeders with MM andTyphoon launcher. They will give you more return and last longer than a podded dread.D

 

4. Magnetise! But,  I have that same loadout in my terminator squads. I think at least one TH per squad is good, 3 is too much. It will depend on how many ap2 you usually face.

[Brother dean]

1.  Why?  The DWK already have a 3++  the PFG only convey's a 4++ and if you put the libby in termie plate then he has a 5++, is it worth it to spend those points to only add 1++ to one guy?  The consensus seems to be give the libby a bike (and a free teleport homer) and run it behind a LRC while still giving an option to have him scoot off for a DWA teleport that wont scatter.  (to be determined at time of set up obviously)

 

2.  Yes, you do not have enough troops to split them up like this.

      2a. Yes, ignore flyers or pot shot at them with the MM on the LRCs.  Outside of Vendettas or Lascannon spuds or starcannons on eldar flyers, there wont really be anything that can hurt you.

 

3.  No Opinion.  Wait for others

 

4.  Okay loadout.   Others will have differing opinions but I say pick up a Dark Vengeance set of termies off of ebay ($15USD or so) for more bodies, Build two more Knights out of what you have for a total of 7..  (just in case), build one squad like you listed from the other box of knights,   One squad from the DV minis (modified as you like from the spare parts in the leftover Knights sprues) and have three spares with different weapons that you can swap around and try different combos in your squads.

 

5.  It is a common theme if you see the answer to #1...

 

6.  Sounds like you might need a Vindicator or WhirlWind for crowd control...

[ValourousHeart]

Lib on bike does not have a teleport homer.

 

Only RW bike units have those.

[Brother dean]

I am away from my codex, would you quote the bit from the wargear section that says that?/Where did that come from so I can look when I get home?

[Cactus]

Page 64. The description of the 'space marine bike' wargear doesn't mention teleport homers, thus it doesn't include one.

[IndigoJack]

1) Already answered effectively.

 

2) DW have no real need for a "homebase." Place your objectives midfield, it's where you really want to be anyways. As Brother Dean mentioned, flyers can largely be ignored. You're either going to be inside a land raider or deep striking midfield. Most flyers don't have turret weapons, and with effective placement, you can limit their damage.

 

3) Is the one-shot suicide vehicle worth it? Is there a vehicle that you absolutely need to wreck turn one? I've found the answer is usually no. It's an expensive option in an already expensive army, and just eats into your already low number of troops.

 

4) Personally, I've found mixing assault and shooting terminators to be less effective since your opponent chooses which wound pool you roll first. Smart opponents will make you roll AP3+ on your storm shields first, hoping you roll that one, then the AP2/1 on the 5++ guys. YMMV.

 

5) LRCs work well as an effective delivery option, particularly for knights, since it gives them frag grenades. I don't run the libby in my DW list, as I've found AV14 + DWV is 9 times out of 10 survivable enough and I can't justify the points for the few times I would need it. I've found that 2x LRCs works best to provide enough mobile LoS blocking to keep my units arriving via DWA enough chance of survival. IMO the best way to use them is LoS blocking first, delivery vehicles second. Deathwing don't usually win by tabling opponents, but rather through smart play and always keeping the mission in mind first.

 

Hope this helps!

[Interrogator Stobz]

^This :D  ofc it is always great when you do table the opponent (tabled the dreaded Tau last game :P ). CC squads with Hvy Flamers in 2 x DWLRCs and Shootie squads DSing in turn two just like March says. PFG dude is great but optional (depends on how much melta the op can bring turn one)

[Prot]

It does help. Thanks.

 

Unfortunately it looks like that brand new Ven. Dread and Pod I bought aren't really a good idea. ;)

 

But I do think I'll keep the Libby in the LRC with Knights... with Divination it could be a good force multiplier.

 

Also since it appears I will also be dropping my Tactical squad, I will have to be careful of my ratio of stuff starting on the table: Libby, LRC, Knights... might have to add Belial to them as well whereas I was hoping to drop him.... with his precision D.S. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Feel free to experiment with the Libby and Dreads though, we are all hoping to learn new tricks :) And not all lists have to min-max everything ;)

[Prot]

Thanks. Yea it seems like it might be a little excessive, but it doesn't hurt to experiment.

 

Like all armies, I'm sure I'll settle into something that suits me... I just love the dread model, and as an old Chaos player do you have idea how tempting using a Drop Pod is? lol

 

Seriously though, the list will probably have very little wiggle room. Maximizing units will be key. The LRC does surprise me, but I'm going to go with it. The Redeemer seems to have a definite use, but apparently no one here is using it.

 

I will keep the dread in the list for now... same with Divination Libby. I'm sure it's all subject to change once the dice start rolling. The Dread will have hvy flamer and MM for multi role but I'm thinking he won't make it to 'Venerable' status.

 

Greenwing is getting cut too... that's a hard one because they've come in so handy with my RW. But I understand why it's hard to keep them.

[Interrogator Stobz]

LRCs IMHO need MM to really make them shine up close mid game.  If you are taking your Dread it will struggle to get close without the pod, I recommend using it in the TLLC Mortis configuration to get both AA and ranged AT to open cans prior to LRC/Termie rush.

[Prot]

LRCs IMHO need MM to really make them shine up close mid game.  If you are taking your Dread it will struggle to get close without the pod, I recommend using it in the TLLC Mortis configuration to get both AA and ranged AT to open cans prior to LRC/Termie rush.

 

Sorry, I haven't used 'loyalist' dreads in a loooong time! TLLC - Twin Linked Lascannon? And Mortis config? Is this tournament legal? I would have to pick up whatever supplement this comes from?

[[TA]Typher]

It's free on the net. Check the tactica.. I have a link under "dreadnoughts"

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup, TL Lascannon. It's 'legal' if you opponent/TO allows it (same as anything really) Rules are found in IA2 Second Ed. expensive but worth it ;)

[Prot]

Hello again from your Ravenwing playing, slow-lazy Deathwing assembling, Dark Angel friend... prot

 

Sorry to bump this but I just want to make sure this is legit:

 

I want to put my Cyclone Missile Launcher on a Terminator with a Hammer and Shield. Is this legal?

 

Long story short, yea I'm still putting these guys together.

 

My dilemma is I LOVE terminators, always have but on a whim when I started DA, I went Ravenwing, but I'm pretty bored of it. So my love of large termie armoured armies kicked in and I thought I would revisit this.

 

I bought a lot of boxes... boxes of the termie kits. Including the 5 I already had from the 2 player set, I think I have enough. I even bought 2 of the DA upgrade sprues from GW so there are some pretty cool Terminator (amongst other stuff) bits on those sprues!!!

 

So the deal is I love the look of the army,  I even picked up some Army Painter paint for these dudesmen, just to -kick-start- these guys into action.

 

The problem is I just keep thinking I'm going to get an arse whoppin'. I play pretty competitive peeps with a dash of 'fun' lists but for the most part I think I'm gonna be staring down a lot of Eldar, Tau, or the dreaded TAU-DAR....

 

So I also have to get a list going for sure. I keep stalling because I don't want to put stuff together and find that actually it IS good to have an assault cannon, or it IS good to have one chainfist per squad....

 

So any advice on best practices for Deathwing troop loadout would be nice too..... Thanks.

 

P.S.

Anyone tried the Army Painter 'bone' color for their Deathwing?

[Cactus]

Hello again from your Ravenwing playing, slow-lazy Deathwing assembling, Dark Angel friend... prot

 

Sorry to bump this but I just want to make sure this is legit:

 

I want to put my Cyclone Missile Launcher on a Terminator with a Hammer and Shield. Is this legal?

 

Yes. The Dark Angels FAQ/errata (April 2013) changed the text of the TH/SS and lightning claw options from "exchange all weapons for..." to "exchange storm bolter and power fist for...". Note that strictly speaking this means the sergeant can't be given TH/SS or lightning claws because he doesn't have a power fist to exchange. Your gaming group may or may not see this as an unintentional slip and let you do it anyway.

 

I LOVE terminators

 

Then you've come to the right place!

 

So any advice on best practices for Deathwing troop loadout would be nice too..... Thanks.

 

Check out [TA]Typher's Deathwing Tactica thread for a variety of opinions and suggestions concerning the greatest warriors of the Imperium. I think there's a link in his signature.

 

Anyone tried the Army Painter 'bone' color for their Deathwing?

 

Yes, I use it as my primer/basecoat. I've described the full technique somewhere before. When I get home I'll dig it out and put the link here.

[march10k]

I would add three things. While I really, really love my knights, I don't use them in my competitive list any more, for the simple reason that they're nonscoring and five just isn't enough. You need 6-7 of them to get a reliable smite (since the knight master has a flail instead) against a MC, and since you lose T5 when you get down to three models in melee (two out of melee). You also need to remember ALL of their special rules (hammer of wrath is the one I most often forget) to make them outperform thundernators on a point for point basis. I've been running two crusaderloads of thundernators (I also dropped the heavy flamer/chainfist guy for a thundernator) in my tournament practice games lately, and the main improvement has been the fact that thundernators are scoring.

The other thing I would add is more of a question. The wording of the PFG FAQ suggests that it protects only the models inside a transport (if the PFG is inside), not the transport itself. If indeed it does actually protect the crusader, and you're only running one crusader, then the best way to field the PFG is with a naked techmarine. He can stay inside when the transported squad dismounts, and hiding a bike behind the tank is tough in any situation, the bike is going to be vulnerable to fliers, deepstrikers, and anything fast (like other bikes), especially as you advance upfield. If you move 18" on turn one, especially if the enemy moved some of his stuff forward on turn one, it's going to be really easy for the enemy to see, and thus shoot, the bike-PFG...especially if there's only one crusader to hide behind. I usually have one of my crusaders move 2" less than the maximum in order to create a small space for the bike to sit sideways out of "from the side" LOS. Can't do that with just one tank!

I have toyed with another list, but it's really not viable at 1850 because it only has two scoring units...three crusaders with the dakkapole in the center one and thundernator squads in the flanking tanks. You can squeeze it into 1850 and still fit the PFG bike, but you have to give up deathwing vehicle. It would be a viable list if the command squad were scoring...but alas, it's not really a viable list below 2500, where you can get two DWA squads and restore deathwing vehicle to the tanks. I did play one "fun" game with the list, and it did stomp a hole in someone else's tournament list with its 84 twinlinked shots at 24", but two scoring units just doesn't cut it in a serious list. As soon as a single tank goes down, you lose, since it ends up costing you either one of your only two scoring units, or your dakkapole. In fact, you could very well have every model in your army survive the game and still lose, especially if you end up playing with five objectives. Still, it was fun, and my opponent was horrified that I had AV14 4++ venerable tanks with 28 twinlinked shots appiece

[Prot]

Thanks guys.

 

Cactus: any pics of those Army Painter dudes? I've never used it but I'm desperate to get this show on the road. I've been stalling forever. Also I did read that Deathwing tactica guide, and maybe I missed it? But I didn't see any specific deathwing troops load out advice....

 

march10k: NO KNIGHTS? Man I can't do that. It might be more... efficient? But I love the concept, and the models. ;)