Large CSM Units?

[Loyalist]

Does anyone ever use units of 15-20 Chaos Space Marines in non-Apocalypse games?

 

The main reason I'm asking is that for the last codex I collected two dozen Fabius Bile troop figures (ugly as they are), because FB could attempt to 'enhance' more than one unit of troops. (The results wouldn't necessarily be good.) Now the randomness has been taken out of his rules and he can only enhance a single troop.

 

I thought it might be fun to use 20 FB troop figs in a single CSM squad, though it has obvious disadvantages (no transport that can hold 20 figures, no way to get them into close combat quickly if foot-slogging, large target). I was thinking a squad that big would only be useful in Cities of Death, or defending inside a bastion.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I've experimented with it before. Getting them into rapid fire distance without taking casualties is a rewarding challenge.

[Icarsun]

If you grab Forge World Apocalypse (the latest edition), it has the rules for a Chaos Storm Eagle. A Heavy Support AV12 Flyer Assault Vehicle with a transport capacity of 20 starting at slightly less than a Landraider. That is provided your local meta supports Forgeworld.

 

As for using large squads, I haven't tried it. I would be interested in other peoples attempts though

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Big squads is one of the things that sets us apart from loyalists that GW has done nothing to encourage except half-baked Icons with set prices. Oh, you bought twenty men? May as well have just bought a separate squad, you can't get this one anywhere quickly and the other one gets you more special weapons. (We're just kidding about getting anywhere quickly; it's not like you get decent transports anyway)

[bjoluemblem]

I've had some experience with them, and it's can be challenging to figure them out. I find that two groups of 15-20 with a lord/HQ to give fearless makes them perform decently. Two plasma guns and extra CCWs makes a decent (not great, but decent) punch in melee with AP2 shooting. I think Huron Blackheart as warlord and Fabius to grant infiltrate coupled with large blobs of CSMs can be hard to deal with. Not the best choice if your meta if full of Tau and Eldar as they'll just shoot you off the table. It's fun, and fluffy, but sometimes cultists are better-which still hasn't stopped me from taking at least 2 CSM squads in every list. Make sure that your CSMs are anti-infantry and you bring oblits or dinobots or something to deal with tanks. Good times.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I've had some experience with them, and it's can be challenging to figure them out. I find that two groups of 15-20 with a lord/HQ to give fearless makes them perform decently. Two plasma guns and extra CCWs makes a decent (not great, but decent) punch in melee with AP2 shooting. I think Huron Blackheart as warlord and Fabius to grant infiltrate coupled with large blobs of CSMs can be hard to deal with. Not the best choice if your meta if full of Tau and Eldar as they'll just shoot you off the table. It's fun, and fluffy, but sometimes cultists are better-which still hasn't stopped me from taking at least 2 CSM squads in every list. Make sure that your CSMs are anti-infantry and you bring oblits or dinobots or something to deal with tanks. Good times.

 

It would be more attractive if specials were something like "2 for 5 and +1 for every additional 5 past 10" or something. 20 dudes with 2 plasma guns doesn't normally seem better than 2x10 dudes with 2 plasma guns, you know? If 20 CSM could walk around as one unit with 4 plasma guns that would make them more attractive, but I guess the point of huge squads is drowning the enemy in bolter shots and chainswords to the face.

[Tenebris]

I field usually a squad of 20 CSM with a Fearless character or even with Ahriman/Huron points permitting. No extra weapons and only two plasma guns and melta bombs/power weapon on the aspiring champion. I can say that the squad usually works good, not great but good. It has enough bolter fire to counter most threats, it is strong enough to last till the last turn and can reliably kill enemy troops, hordes and more of the like. Even enemy infiltrators and terminators struggle to take upon such a squad. 

 

I use this setup mostly as a massive anvil upon which break many enemy squads, I simply advance forward, shoot, advance again, shoot and so on. It is a big threat thus it warrants some attention by my adversaries, it is nice for it can keep the Relic and reliable enough to clean one or two objectives and cap one if needed, usually the most exposed one. With Fearless also it has to be felled model by single model thus it can be kept operative for quite some time. 

 

The downsides is that this is not a mobile formation, it is expensive, it requires a special character or rule to make it Fearless, it is exposed to enemy area weapons and it can kill reliably low tier enemies while high tier enemies are much more of a challenge. If you do not have access to Infiltration than you have to leg it over the board so you eat fire for three turns at least. On the other hand it is a nice anvil upon which break your enemies, push up the center and threaten things like the Relic. 

 

Reliably the cultists have a go in squads of 20 but there is a huge difference between 3+ or 6+ and the CSM variant works better with FnP form Biomancy, Invisibility and Infiltration. 

[oreaper84]

I have had some success with running a Huron+Fabius list with a 20 strong all the trimmings MoS unit with FnP banner. Yes this squad costs a bit, yes it can get ground down from shooting. Infiltrate this squad and your opponent will ignore almost everything else till its gone, or if it does get to combat it tears things appart. I have crushed full death wing night squads with this unit BEFORE they got to swing. They key to its success has been lots of forward support. I usually run 2 other squads of marines in rhinos, a land raider full of nasty and other mech support in this list. Its not the most competative tourney list, but i have entered it and come out with 2/3 and 2/4 ratios.

 

Also if you want a bit of fun, instead of huron run a MoS lord and bring the noise for some support! Good luck and remember its about have fun with the toys you got. Use em!

[Sception]

I've tried bit CSM squads in the 16 to 20 range, hoofing it, advancing behind a cultist screen, infiltrating via huron (though keeping out of l.o.s. is harder with squads that size, and lately infiltrating is harder to do in general), and most recently dropping in via Kharybdis.  I've tried them with and without extra close combat weapons, with and without vets, with and without the fearless banner, and with and without attached characters.    Usually with bolters, though, except for one test game with the Kharybdis where they all died before they deployed, anyway.  Sometimes I mix bolter and BP&CCWep instead of doing both or all of one or the other.  For thematic reasons, I haven't bothered with marks or aligned icons.

 

It's not that such a squad has never done anything for me.  They have.  But in general, I find that many points in one place hurts too much defensively, while the hit to my special weapon count hurts too much offensively, and the big squad either gets gunned down before they can get to rapid fire range, or confronted with something their bolters, S4 melee attacks, and krak grenades can't handle, and their pair of specials generally isn't enough specials to make the difference.

 

Of all the means of running them, cultist screen is the way I'd least recommend.  They don't provide much protection, get in your way, and then let opposing squads hide in close combat before you get to rapid fire them, and unless your CSMs are fearless via banner or character, you can't even charge in to support them, because they'll hemorrhage so much combat res that your CSMs will lose combat and break.

 

Kharybdis is next worst.  It's just way, way too many points, and since it's too dangerous to stay in the thing a turn to use all its special rules, you end up deploying right away and not using hardly any, meaning you just paid 260 points and a heavy slot for a double capacity drop pod.

 

I'd most recommend infiltrate, though again, depending on what your terrain looks like, how savvy your opponent is in the deployment phase, and whether inquisition is popular in your area, you may find infiltrating 20 dudes close enough to pull off a turn one rapid fire may be rather difficult.

 

I don't recommend per model upgrades like vets or extra close combat weapons.  An attached character can be worthwhile, but the challenge rule will be a pain, so it's iffy.

[the jeske]

There are many ways to make csm different from loyalists marines , but all of them require house rules . If cultists had the tyrant guard giving cover to units of meq standing behind them , we could think about runing csm [or zerkers] . If we could get 1 special per 5 dudes [as others said] we would be runing 15man csm squads . If icons didn't get lost in the warp when their bearer dies, we would use 12-16 man csm squads. etc Right now there is no good way to run them , only the best way which probably is an achor unit with all the good and bad sides mr Dark Ridder mentioned.

Personaly I would run them with 10 bolters and 5 ccw/pistol ablative armor dudes . in 2-3 squads with 2 HQ from main codex and 1 from the BL one to have them all fearless and with an uber melee champion inside . probably all 3 of them sorc . support the whole thing with raptors[yes raptors] to jump over the huge blob of marines in front of them to as sort of attack from all sides tactics . Probably with 2 maulers between each of the 15 mans . No oblits , no drakes[not enough points] , no reservs , no tricks .Just a wall of marines . As long as the opposing army isn't realy good and the table isn't full of impassible lava rivers it could be just as fun to play as my NM in 5th.

[Sception]

*makes note to try Jeske's suggested setup sometime*

[the jeske]

Don't expect anything awesome . On a table in a "forge the narrative" enviroment it could work , in vassal it doesn't . Although I must say I had some serious fun getting slamedin by an old nid army and then going nova and shrieking out of every sorc in a single turn [yes 3 old SitW passed] and killing over 100models in a single turn[powers+melee +tervigons blowing up].

[Warsmith Aznable]

...except for one test game with the Kharybdis where they all died before they deployed, anyway.

 

Ouch. Pretty much what I expected from the Kharybdis, though.

[Sception]

It's what happens if you try to use the Kharybdis as apparantly intended. You can just deployinstead of waiting around, but then you're better off with bolters again.