Are Fragiosos fit for tourni?

[thebymster]

I'm heading to my first tourni in a fortnight, my 1500 pt list needs to be submitted in a week so not much time for modeling or painting stuff. I've been a wolf player for years but recently been using BA as allies and now as fave army.

I've been following several threads here for a few weeks and got some great ideas for essential units but the closer I get to T day the less certain I get about what I will take.

My latest idea is to take :

Dante - I love precision strike and -1w to war lord!

10 ASM 2 melta and infernus gunslinger - to bring with Dante or combat squad for anti tank antics.

10 ASK 2melta T Ham.

Priest with jump and Fist

2 fragiosos in drop pods

a dread with TL H flame and H flame in pro pod.

SanGuard with 2 inf a fist and 3 or 4 axes.

 

I realise there no Anti-Aircraft stuff but there's plenty of AP1 /2 and plenty to deep strike in onto Tau / Eldar goodness.

 

Experienced battle brothers, what are your thoughts please?

[Bartali]

Podded Frag Cannon Furioso's are generally loved in this forum, I'm not a fan of them though.

 

In my experience they drop, fail to kill off a unit, and then die in my opponents turn and give up first blood. That's with two dropping in the first turn - three may be the charm I guess.

[BloodTzar]

I have learned it the hard way;

 

if you spam them, go all in and pod them right into enemies faces. 

if you use single, go smart, pod him out of the range in cover, just to make your opponent think about him while moving

 

~BT

[RenderDead]

You either love them or you have no luck with them is what I hear.  I love them and they fit my shock and awe strategy.  You have to be smart with them with what you want to kill to make sure you get the most out of them.

 

This past weekend I went to a tourney and they shined for me.  First game I dropped two in front of about 40-50 guardsmen and I wiped out around 30+ (he was bunched up), IMO use heavy flamers with them!  

 

Second game vs Eldar I took out a wraith knight with one, wave serpent with another plus some.

 

Third game all tank Imp Guard, did what I could but kinda hard vs all armor with no where to hide.

 

If you don't have a absolute best spot to place them for maximum damage try to avoid and maybe run a flank.  Dreadnoughts are still feared IMO but in a tourney level be smart people know to take them out and get rear armor instead of our beast AV 13 front.

 

Best of luck!

[Sanguine Eternal]

I have learned it the hard way;

 

if you spam them, go all in and pod them right into enemies faces. 

if you use single, go smart, pod him out of the range in cover, just to make your opponent think about him while moving

 

~BT

 

Have to agree with this.  You need to get ballsy with them if you want success with them.  Don't be scared of deploying them behind their forces 8" from the board edge or less.  (Dice gods are always in my favor for scattering pods)

 

Maximize their targets, kill off their troops, try to sneak in a couple hits on a vehicle with your frag cannon as well if you can do it legally.

 

I like my 3 fragiosos in pods with DWML equipped pods.  Yes you risk first blood if you fail, but that's the gamble.  If your opponent has a large unit of troops, I'd pod them both in to ensure I get first blood.  Focus on 1 unit.  My last game vs nids I killed a squad of 15 gaunts with each fragioso for 30 gaunts first turn.  Heavy flamer instead of MG, and a magna grapple to increase the kill radius of my templates to 12"

 

If you have nothing to shoot at, pod them behind cover so they can survive the turn.  You can get lucky in your opponents following turn as well, and he may not kill a single dread.  It happens.

[thebymster]

Ok, thanks for all that guys.

Let me ellaborate on the question:

if you were putting a 1500 pt list with 2 fragiosos (with H Flame) And a dread with TL H Flame and H Flame all in drop pods (590) what would you add?

[Morticon]

Gotta repeat this (as I do) But i cannot speak more strongly of the Melta/Magna/Frag combo.  

2x S8 and 2x S6 remding template shots is an incredible amount of versatile firepower.

 

If people are having trouble getting first blood with 2 of these boys, i rate its because theyre targeting the wrong units, or not packing meltas!

The frag cannon+ flamer is the ultimate horde thinner- no debate - but i dont believe thats the only role of this unit.

 

Give it a bash with at least one in that config 

[thebymster]

That is ACTUALLY how I've always run them! Shocked to hear I was doing sommat right!

 

But are they in danger of becoming Jack of all trades master of none, like that? Mag grap not get melta rule. In about 8 outings I only ever managed once to drag something, and that was a rhino- and then it was into a tac squad who didn't get tank shocked and I couldn't assault it cos just arrived by drop pod!

[depthcharge12]

Always shoot with the magna grapple first so you can drag the vehicle into melta range. I'm surprised as some people seem to forget that haha

[Sanguine Eternal]

Doesn't matter what you shoot first with a fragioso.  You roll to hit/wound with everything technically at the same time.  Then saving throws are made in the order which you choose.  And regardless of you podding in, if your magna grapple drags a tank into combat with you, you are able to fight it in CC that turn regardless.

[ianj253]

I play in a fair amount of tournaments and always take 1 podded fragisio in my list. I find it can usually get first blood most of the time. 

 

My question is how do you use the fragisio against a list that lacks a viable first blood option or against a savvy opponent who deploys well or  reserves the units it could get first blood against? 

 

For example last week I played two games. The first was against the new nids and the guy was running a Nidzilla list. In this game there wasn't really a viable option to send him after, and his pod ended up giving my opponent first blood. The other game I played CSM w/daemon allies. The guy deployed most of his units in ruins and spread them out over multiple levels. Once again the pod ended up costing me first blood. 

[knife&fork]

My question is how do you use the fragisio against a list that lacks a viable first blood option or against a savvy opponent who deploys well or  reserves the units it could get first blood against? 

 

You bring more units in pods so that you aren't forced to play that fragioso card until it's safe (or worthwhile) to do so. If it's your only pod but you do have a raven he could always catch a ride and put the empty pod in your backfield or even try to force a mishap in order to get it back in reserves. 

 

You could even do the forced reserve thing with the dread inside the pod if you know that it's going to be a liability to plop him down first turn. 

[ianj253]

My list only has 1 pod in it and would require a complete change to include more. 

 

I'd say the forced mishap is way to much of a gamble for a 175 point unit. 1/2 of the time the fragisio will be useless or destroyed. 

 

What is this forced reserve idea you mention? I thought half of your pods must come down on turn one because of drop pod assault. 

[knife&fork]

It's forcing a mishap, or making it very likely to fail. With an empty pod you might gamble just to not give up first blood in scenario with few VPs. With a dread inside the pod I'd only use if there's really no way to get any use of the dread right now.

 

Very few scenarios come to mind, like having most of the board covered by warpquake or zero good targets available. In the latter you might have an opponent deployed high up in a ruin so you can't use your fragcannon and lot's of AV killers counter reserved. 

[Xenith]

I like my 3 fragiosos in pods with DWML equipped pods.  Yes you risk first blood if you fail, but that's the gamble.  If your opponent has a large unit of troops, I'd pod them both in to ensure I get first blood.  Focus on 1 unit.  My last game vs nids I killed a squad of 15 gaunts with each fragioso for 30 gaunts first turn.  Heavy flamer instead of MG, and a magna grapple to increase the kill radius of my templates to 12"

 

Deathwind launchers cannot shoot on teh turn the pod arrives. The pod moves 12" and is not a fast vehicle.

 

 

Always shoot with the magna grapple first so you can drag the vehicle into melta range. I'm surprised as some people seem to forget that haha

Shooting is simultaneous, so you measure melta range when you fire the melta at the same time as the magna grapple. If you fire the magna grapple, and not them melta, then by the time you have grappled you have lost your chance to fire the melta.

[Sanguine Eternal]

 

I like my 3 fragiosos in pods with DWML equipped pods.  Yes you risk first blood if you fail, but that's the gamble.  If your opponent has a large unit of troops, I'd pod them both in to ensure I get first blood.  Focus on 1 unit.  My last game vs nids I killed a squad of 15 gaunts with each fragioso for 30 gaunts first turn.  Heavy flamer instead of MG, and a magna grapple to increase the kill radius of my templates to 12"

 

Deathwind launchers cannot shoot on teh turn the pod arrives. The pod moves 12" and is not a fast vehicle.

 

 

>Always shoot with the magna grapple first so you can drag the vehicle into melta range. I'm surprised as some people seem to forget that haha

Shooting is simultaneous, so you measure melta range when you fire the melta at the same time as the magna grapple. If you fire the magna grapple, and not them melta, then by the time you have grappled you have lost your chance to fire the melta.

 

 

I know the DWML can't fire first turn, as I have said before in previous posts.  I have also said, that I'd rather wait a turn to fire a large str.5 pie plate over snap shooting a storm bolter as well.  It's all personal preference, as I play a lot of xenos armies in my area with lots of bodies.

[Jorre]

Be really aggressive with your deepstriking, take corbulo for the reroll if things go bad

[Morticon]

That is ACTUALLY how I've always run them! Shocked to hear I was doing sommat right!

 

But are they in danger of becoming Jack of all trades master of none, like that? Mag grap not get melta rule. In about 8 outings I only ever managed once to drag something, and that was a rhino- and then it was into a tac squad who didn't get tank shocked and I couldn't assault it cos just arrived by drop pod!

 

The Magna doesnt have the melta rule, but does have AP2, which is also great. 

They're defs a Jack of All Trades- which is why I rate its even more important to choose your targets wisely.  

Most side armour is 11, meaning you only need a 4+ to pen, and with the frag cannon a 5 is a glance, and a 6 is a pen.  Chances for first blood are high in those situations. 

I wouldnt be gunning for AV13 vehicles.  

[thebymster]

 

And regardless of you podding in, if your magna grapple drags a tank into combat with you, you are able to fight it in CC that turn regardless.

 

REALLY?

If opponent says; "show me the rule that state's that," where can I point, the mag grap entry in dex?

[Jolemai]

Sadly the Magna Grapple can not pull things into combat. It will stop one inch away from you as you're only permitted to get into base to base if you charge.

[thebymster]

 

Deathwind launchers cannot shoot on teh turn the pod arrives. The pod moves 12" and is not a fast vehicle.

 

 

Is that official?

where I am we always Play that the combat

Speed of a drop pod is "deep strike" so, yes it has gone more than 12" coming from miles above board but it has deep strike rule and all reserves can shoot on arrival if travelling at minimum speed!

 

Sure that's for another thread though!

 

Sadly the Magna Grapple can not pull things into combat. It will stop one inch away from you as you're only permitted to get into base to base if you charge.

Yeah sounded too good 2 b true! I'm sure there's a rule that says you need a special rule if u wanna assault on the turn u arrive from reserve.

[Jolemai]

An arriving Drop Pod has moved at cruising speed for that turn. As it's not a fast vehicle, it can only perform snap shots on the turn it arrives and blast weapons can not make snap shots.

[Sanguine Eternal]

Sadly the Magna Grapple can not pull things into combat. It will stop one inch away from you as you're only permitted to get into base to base if you charge.

You sir are right. I failed to read the stops within 1" of a vehicle model (friend or foe)

Sooo I've cheated once with it.

In reality, it rarely does its job anyways for me. I'm known down at the shop to roll 1's to hit with it 99% of the time.

[knife&fork]

The magna grapples job is giving you the extra S8AP2 shot as well as some extra weapon destroyed protection. The grapple rule is just for funsies. 

 

It's worth noting that RAW you can grapple anything with AV that isn't a flyer. That includes buildings and super heavies :P

 

"Ok, so now I'm gonna tank shock you with your own fortress of redemption..."

[Sanguine Eternal]

Yeah thats true.  I use it more for that IC or something hiding in the unit I just burnt to a crisp.  Forcing all his look our sirs until the magna grapple is the only one left and causes instant death.  It's slayed the warlord on multiple occasions.

Like you said as well, its an extra weapon for weapon destroyed.  Same reason I take storm bolters on my Baal Preds.  Funny enough, in my last game I took 2 weapon destroyed on 2 of my fragioso's, both were the magna grapple.