BA and Red Scorpions

[BloodTzar]

Hello Brothers,

 

 

While trying to think of a way, how to make my BA competitive; able to adjust GW's power creep. I have gone for all sorts of allies, sitting on the SM, until I have seen the new FW chapter update. 

 

One thing I have noticed were the RS's chapter tactic, allowing their sarge to become priest for free. I know only veteran and tactical sarge’s can be upgraded, however what else do you need from the allies...cheap razors with 5 man las cannon, and free veteran apothecary in the command squad mainly the free apothecary(still not loosing his special ammo bolter) in 10 (9)man stern guards. 

 

 

On the other hand, RS have their own version of Mephiston; Servin Loth,3 powers per tuns, with 2++ if you want. Possibly making your stern guards, invisible while dropped in some cover with the free priest from the sarge while heroically tanking everything on 2+/2++ with 5+ FNP

 

EDIT:

 

they still have this:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Smupdate.pdf

 

 

Still putting the list together but I wonder if anyone have any experience with Red Scorps allies in particular?

 

 

 

~BT

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

i was under the impression that only tactical squads could get the upgrade, is it the consensus that any veteran sergeant can take the upgrade?

 

after re-reading it, i still think it's saying that it only applies to tactical squads, but it can be a regular or veteran sergeant.

[BloodTzar]

from the FW:

 

Purity Above All: Any Tactical squad Sergeant or Veteran 

Sergeant with Chapter Tactics (Red Scorpions) may be made 

a member of the Chapter’s Apothecarion and upgraded to 

carry a Narthecium for no additional points cost (see page 125 

of Codex: Space Marines). This does not otherwise alter their 

wargear, additional options or profile, and should always be 

appropriately represented on the model.

 

You can clearly see its Veteran Sarge as well

[Blindhamster]

thats because you dont have to upgrade your tactical sergeant to a veteran, it is clearly just on tactical squads.

[BloodTzar]

I dont think so, you can use it on any veteran sarge. I would asume it would be written more specificaly if they would want to limit it to the tac vet sarges only, i.e. "Tactical squad veteran..."

[Blindhamster]

it says any tactical squad sergeant or veteran sergeant. it doesn't say any tactical squad sergeant or sternguard squad sergeant or vanguard squad sergeant. the unit entries are pretty specific. The reason they say any tactical squad sergeant or veteran sergeant is because a tactical squad can be lead by either, and they want the option available regardless of if you pay for the veteran sergeant upgrade. The way it's written is very clear.

[BloodTzar]

You can upgreade sternguard sarge to veteran sarge which can be ugreaded with the Nathe-thingie according to RAW.

[Blindhamster]

I dont read it in that way, nor did the friends I asked, if your buddies are cool with it, or the TO is cool with it, then by all means

[BloodTzar]

I did look into codex, under all means the stern/van guard vets have veteran sarges in other words they can be apothecaries, simple as that :)

[Blindhamster]

It specifically says tactical squads, this is a qualifier as far as the English language is concerned, if it tactical sergeants or any veteran sergeants it would say exactly that. However, i'll drop a question on the FW Facebook page for your benefit :)

[Kanis]

I'm completely with Blind on this one, sorry to say but it clearly is talking about Tactical Sergeant and/or Veteran Sergeants in that squad, nothing else. Trying to get any other benefit out of it is just incorrect. That's the balance of the Tactic is just their troops being able to gain this, no others.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I'm with Blindhamster and Kanis in reading it too (though I can see where the confusion lies)..

 

But if the folks you're playing with are okay with it, you're good to go.

 

Alternatively, just email Forge World. The response won't be fast, but it'll happen.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

it doesn't even make sense that tactical squad sergeants can have it, but only veteran sergeants can have it in other squads, does it?  i was really pumped about this chapter trait too when i first saw it, i thought i'd do a counts as iron snakes list, but when i realized you could only use tactical squads, it wasn't as exciting.  i still might though, as in the stories, they don't use anything other than tactical squads anyway.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

thats because you dont have to upgrade your tactical sergeant to a veteran, it is clearly just on tactical squads.

 

I disagree. 

 

I think what you're saying is clearly what was intended to be, but as written it is saying what BloodTzar is saying.

 

Send it to the Supreme Court of O.R..

[Blindhamster]

I explained it better in my last post and have dropped a message on the FW facebook page.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Well my counter would be it doesn't say "...or Tactical squad Veteran Sergeant" which I now think is what was probably intended but is not what is written.

 

What do I need to be to upgrade to an Apothecary? I need to be a Tactical squad Sergeant or a Veteran Sergeant. I'm not a Tactical squad Sergeant but I am a Veteran Sergeant so, upgrade.

 

That's how it's written, if not intended.

[Blindhamster]

I asked my wife (lol) and her interpretation matched mine, she has no real knowledge of the game but is a teacher for what its worth. So from my point of view RAW and RAI are in alignment, FW usually answer pretty quickly though so will update with that obviously!

 

Edit for text spelling

[Memento Of Prospero]

It refers to tactical squad sergeants, or the veteran who is the upgrade of the sergeant. Otherwise it would start with tactical squad and sternguard unit sergeants may etc...

[Memento Of Prospero]

If there was a coma after the tactical sergeant it would seperate them, but there is not, thus it refers to tactical squads still.

[Blindhamster]

Thanks wolf_pack, clear and eloquent explanation

[Leonaides]

Tactical squad (sergeant or veteran sergeant) is how I read it too.

[Disruptor_fe404]

How come no one seems to be arguing for the upgrade applying to either a "Tactical squad Sergeant" or "Veteran Sergeant with Chapter Tactics (Red Scorpions)"? It's a completely valid reading if you apply the OP's logic. Too out there?

 

IE: That a non-Red Scorpions Tactical squad Sergeant can take it.

[Memento Of Prospero]

If there was a coma disruptor, you could interpret it that way, as it would seperate both. The lack of coma infers that it is one and the same.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Exactly, but the OP's assumption runs on the same logic.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Ok, so clearly there's an English major/teacher approach here.

 

I work in law, so my approach is legalistic. I'd argue that this should be the favoured approach as we're not analyzing prose, here, we're reading rules. It cannot be said that Games Workshop rules are free from typos or grammatical errors and nor are they aimed solely at an English speaking audience and so a strict construction based on rules of the English language would be unhelpful. That said, I'd be interested to see how this rule has been translated in non-English language books. Accordingly, I would argue that an approach that eliminated the potential for significance to be attributed to typos, grammatical errors or regional language customs is required. I would further argue that a legalistic approach achieves this.

 

Anyway, ordinary rules of construction dictate that a sentence or words should be given their ordinary meaning unless a rule of construction or statute (which in this case would be a S.R) provides otherwise. There is no applicable rule of construction that would change the meaning of the words written, nor is there a statute/S.R. to provide anything other than the ordinary meaning of the sentence. 

 

Accordingly, what I wrote in my last post holds true. To avail yourself of the Apothecary upgrade you must be a Tactical squad Sergeant (which isn't per se a unit so the 'Tactical squad' part of the description is included to clarify who it applies to) or a Veteran Sergeant (which is a unit) with CT(RS).

 

So the test then is twofold;

 

1.

 

a)

i. are you a Tactical squad Sergeant?

ii. are you a Veteran Sergeant?

 

If yes to either of the above, go on to b);

 

b) do you have Chapter Tactics (Red Scorpions)? 

 

If you answer yes to either a) i. or a) ii. AND b), you can upgrade. 

 

I agree completely that this is probably not what was intended. It is, however, what is written. 

 

There is also, as mentioned, an argument to be made that you only need to have CT(RS) to upgrade if you're a Veteran Sergeant and therefore any Tactical squad Sergeant can upgrade. It's a silly argument though and I don't want to make it. You'd be trying to make a provision from the Residential Tenancies Act apply to the Construction Liens Act.