tomsev Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 sorry if a topic about this has already been made but i tried a search and found none... so what do you all think of this relic, i know its expensive but it could really hurt... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickeh Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 It's pretty good if you absolutely must swing at initiative and AP2, but a lot of the time you're better served by taking the shield eternal for eternal warrior, and a thunder hammer. You lose out on the high init of a captain/chapter master but gain the ability to tank S10 ranged weaponry and stand up against MC's in combat for prolonged periods. And after the 1st round of combat you'll be striking at equal initiative thanks to the thunder hammer anyway. Edit: and S8 is hugely better than S7, in that it allows you to ID T4. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3579721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I agree with that, but striking at high Initiative with AP2 is very potent. If you're with a squad and run into some nasty heavily armoured types then he could cut them down to size before they can munch your squad for example. It depends on what you want/need your character to do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3579746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The problem is that the sword is just good enough that you want to take it, but loses out to the hammer/shield combo every time in overall utility. 1. S7 vs S8. The Burning Blade is high enough Strength to wound almost all infantry on 2's (with an occasional 3), but the hammer's S8 means that not only are wounding all infantry on a 2+, you're also doubling out the Toughness of Marines. This causes Instant Death on characters and denies FNP on the likes of Plague Marines, Iron Hands, and Blood Angels. Plus, Monstrous Creatures are, as we all know, exceedingly common these days. DPs might only be T5, but Riptides are 6's and Wraithknights are 8's, which makes the hammer a more reliable weapon when wounding. 2. The hammer doesn't bite its wielder. 3. The Blade isn't a Specialist Weapon like the hammer is. This presents a list-building connundrum. Do you take the Shield Eternal or even just a normal storm shield for the improved save? If you do, you're missing out on an extra attack since the Blade can be paired with a pistol to make your Chapter Master five attacks base. So now you want to take a pistol. . . in which case you're relying on a 4++ to save your hide against high-strength shooting and those ubiquitous MCs we were talking about earlier. So you default back to the Shield because it's the safe way to run your commander and now you're losing points because you're not taking advantage of the Blade's one advantage (an extra attack). So while a nice idea in theory, the hammer paired with the Shield Eternal is simply a better option all around, especially if you're taking an Honor Guard squad because now the hammer's up to five attacks anyway thanks to the Chapter Banner. (You are taking the Chapter Banner, right?!?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3579850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 cant you take both? where is that written? ive always played both burning blade and shield eternal, best of both games, and i run him on a bike with allied black knight shooting rad grenades... so s8 or s7 doesnt change much... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3579995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 then watch as a dæmon prince with black mace kills you in 2 round of cc and you only hit him once... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 My Bike Chapter Master rolls without the shield and with a unit pof Black Knights too. It works fine in my tiny, tiny meta. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I honestly haven't even tried the Burning Blade yet. It, the Thunder Hammer, and the Teeth of Terra all kind of fall into a similar area for me. The difference is which ones work best what different units. When in doubt I take ToT because I enjoy the versatility, and taking a pistol with it doesn't disadvantage it since it has rampage. Thunder Hammers are nice with the shield eternal, (Usually on my terminator captain or master), but the burning blade just never fits what I need. I suppose a captain or master with an honorguard fun squad would work well, but again, I've never really used it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 then watch as a dæmon prince with black mace kills you in 2 round of cc and you only hit him once... how come because the hammer has commotion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 concussive but yes, keeping things at your initiative incredibly useful since as a beat stick you need to be able to fight all other beat sticks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azash Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Just theorizing here but short of a greater deamon of nurgle wouldn't the burning blade be best paired with a grav pistol. The pistol is pretty close to a sure wound and it has concussive. The burning blade swings at initiative and allows you to benefit from the extra attack garnered by the pistol. On a CM that means your swinging first with 6 attacks on a model that's already taken a wound. Blind is not as good as concussive but Its not bad either. One minor rules question if the target is cuncussed and has an I1 from the pistol is the initiative test taken against blind rolled against I1 or the models regular initiative? Edit: also the grav pistol burning blade combo is 10 pts cheaper than the shield eternal and thunder hammer combo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Ok, let's game this out math-hammer style. Your BB/GP Master charges a Riptide. Six attacks on the charge, hitting on 3+, means you'll land four hits. Wounding on 3+, you'll inflict three wounds. The Riptide will make, on average, one of his 5++ saves, meaning he's taken just two wounds. Now its his turn. He chooses to Smash on a 4+ with two attacks. He hits once on average, and will wound on a 2+. You now have a single 4++ to make; a fifty-fifty chance. If you pass, you win the combat by one and maybe get to run him down. If you fail, your 200-some-odd-points Chapter Master just got Instant Death'd. That last bit is why the Shield is better than the Burning Blade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Actually Azash that's a brilliant idea. I assume the test would be taken against I1, it's the same with leadership modifiers or even toughness tests. Also, considering that a marine hit by a rad grenade can be insta-killed by an assault Cannon round, I think it's a pretty safe bet. In that case you're almost guaranteed to be fighting I1 WS1 opponents...very nice indeed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 im saying take both the sword and the shield... or arent we allowed to? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 You can. But I've tried it before, it's not bad, but he got tied up for 2 game turns of combat by a command squad with apothecary simply because they still got their FNP rolls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 You can. But I've tried it before, it's not bad, but he got tied up for 2 game turns of combat by a command squad with apothecary simply because they still got their FNP rolls. Anecdotal evidence of my commentary regarding the importance of S8 vs. S7. Plus, if you're investing in two relics on the same character, you are chewing up a LOT of points, and that character is going to end up being close to half your army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I wouldn't take both Burning Blade and Shield Eternal on the same model either. You do pay a little more for the Burning Blade to not be a Specialist Weapon, and I personally follow the 'One Relic per army' interpretation rather than the 'One of each Relic per army' interpretation. And, as mentioned, it's a lot of points on an already expensive model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3580887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 If you don't take the Shield Eternal you should at least take a Storm Shield, IMO. If on a bike you've still got T5, and you can think of the points you "lost" from the extra Burning Blade attack as points saved from not having to buy the Shield Eternal. To me, first and foremost, the large point cost of the Burning Blade is for the AP2 at initiative and the S bonus. If I only wanted volume of attacks I can easily take Teeth of Terra or a power weapon/relic blade with a bolt pistol instead. It's kind of a waste of the Burning Blade's immense power to not assault things with 2+. And things at 2+ are things you want a storm shield against. Even if it's only going from a 4++ to 3++ it's still a 32% (I think) increase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3581163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Seems like we just value the Attack vs save increase differently! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3581236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthanor Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Personally, I favor the TH&SE for the chapter master. Being immune to instant death is just too hard to pass up and it makes the best beatstick/counter-beatstick. The alternative I could see is captain on bike, with pistol and burning blade, as a secondary HQ similar to the Emperor's Champion of old. That gives you the speed to hopefully avoid enemy counters and reach the infantry that the blade specializes against and the weaker support characters. The bike also unlocks bike command squads, which can take a few grav guns for concussive and an apothecary for fnp for a bit more survivability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3581721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Personally, I favor the TH&SE for the chapter master. Being immune to instant death is just too hard to pass up and it makes the best beatstick/counter-beatstick. The alternative I could see is captain on bike, with pistol and burning blade, as a secondary HQ similar to the Emperor's Champion of old. That gives you the speed to hopefully avoid enemy counters and reach the infantry that the blade specializes against and the weaker support characters. The bike also unlocks bike command squads, which can take a few grav guns for concussive and an apothecary for fnp for a bit more survivability. I'll add that putting a Chapter Master on a bike also lets him move and use his Orbital Bombardment. Plus the Burning Blade now self-harms on a 5+ instead of a 4+. In summary, I advocate: Thunder hammer & (storm shield / Shield Eternal) OR Burning Blade & pistol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3581932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted January 29, 2014 Author Share Posted January 29, 2014 Personally, I favor the TH&SE for the chapter master. Being immune to instant death is just too hard to pass up and it makes the best beatstick/counter-beatstick. The alternative I could see is captain on bike, with pistol and burning blade, as a secondary HQ similar to the Emperor's Champion of old. That gives you the speed to hopefully avoid enemy counters and reach the infantry that the blade specializes against and the weaker support characters. The bike also unlocks bike command squads, which can take a few grav guns for concussive and an apothecary for fnp for a bit more survivability. I'll add that putting a Chapter Master on a bike also lets him move and use his Orbital Bombardment. Plus the Burning Blade now self-harms on a 5+ instead of a 4+. In summary, I advocate: Thunder hammer & (storm shield / Shield Eternal) OR Burning Blade & pistol. well i made 1 on foot w/ thunder hammer & shield eternal and 1 on a bike w/ burning blade & pistol (its in a holster so i can use what i want... :) )... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3581937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 well i made 1 on foot w/ thunder hammer & shield eternal and 1 on a bike w/ burning blade & pistol (its in a holster so i can use what i want... )... Mwahaha! Quoting and responding because I can only Like your post once when I want to Like it ten times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3581945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Good stuff here brothers, certainly a lot to think about. It seems to come down to what you want your commander to do. The TH SS/SE is a solid build and will let you deal with almost anything handily, but I think the burning blade will still be useful if you have a place for it. I quite like the idea of having my commander go through heavily armoured squads like a blender, it would be very good against certain armies. I like tomsev's plan, I think the best thing to do is have both! They both present great modelling opportunities and magnetising is always your friend Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3582280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 right ive now made 1 chapter master on a bike w/ burning blade & pistol, 1 chapter master on foot w/ burning blade & grav pistol and 1 chapter master on foot with Thunder hammer & shield eternal... ill get some pics up as soon as i get my camera back... still wondering how to represent the teeth of terra relic... any ideas anyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286128-the-burning-blade-csm/#findComment-3582730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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