Razorbacks

[Rogue]

So, Razorbacks. Two weapon load-outs in the box, but only one turret...

 

Anyone care to share any thoughts on the various merits of the twin heavy bolter versus the twin lascannon (or even the twin assault cannon, as it looks like I have two metal barrels kicking around my bits box)?

 

Incidentally, I'm not sticking the back hatch in place, so it can also double up as a rhino. So the question isn't really whether a razor is better than a rhino. It's more, when I run it as a razor, which turret do I want on the side more often than not?

 

(If it helps, my opposition varies between Grey Knights, Guard, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks and Tyranids. Actually, that may not help all that much.)

[Wraith776]

Personally I'd take the heavy bolter for all of those bar the grey knights. The higher shot count and the ap value will do away with most units from those codexes. The Lascannon will be better against the knights I think, fewer shots, but usually a guaranteed kill.

[Garath]

Here's my 2 cents:

 

Assault cannon

 

  Superior to Lascannon and heavy boltet in almost every case.  Has more shots then both ,has better anti inf ,anti MC and better AT then both.   

  Lascannon can deal with Mid AV better then the AC tho.

 

Second choice:

 

  Lascannon and twin linked plasma gun.

 

  Imagine this:  5 tactical squad, plasma gun, sarge with combi plasma and a Lass/plasma Razorback.

 

  Drive up and unload 6 plasma shots !  ...and a lascannon too!

[Disruptor_fe404]

Garath has my picks.

 

Heavy bolter was fine back when a Razorback on cost 5 points more than a Rhino, but definitely not so much now that it costs 20 (or is it 15?) more than Rhino.

[Rogue]

But a lascannon or assault cannon is another 20 points on top of that, making a cannon-armed razor cost twice the price of a rhino...

[Disruptor_fe404]

Correct, but they are the same points cost as they were before.

 

What I'm saying is that non-heavy bolter weapons are worth the cost (to me), where the heavy bolter isn't (but used to be).

[Garath]

To be honest I wasn't looking at points now vs pts before at all-  but come to think of it , you are right.

 

  I was looking at price vs firepower gained. A lass/plasma Razorback doubles the firepower of the unit transported.  Assault cannon is also usefull againts almost every target you point it at.

 

Havy bolter...not so much

 

  Let's take some examples here : Assault cannon vs Heavy bolter

 

  If you're playing against:

-Mech Eldar

-Tau

-IG

-Space marines

-Inquisition/Sisters

 

  Your squad will find itself in a situation where it's required  too deay with either a transport or a unit . So volume of fire or good AP.

 

    Heaby bolter cannot deal with any of those transorts.It can kill infantry units, true.  And nothing else. Assault cannon will be god enough against every one of those.

 

"Sarge, those RATHER UNPLEASANT ENTITIES have  .."

 

 Firewarriors? ...ok Assault cannon

 Riptide?...target aquired!

 Land Raider?....chweee,chwee.... DAKKKA-DAKKKA!

Wratihlord? ....peep,peep,peee.....DAKKKA-DAKKKA!!

 

 Now imagine having 3 of those co-ordinate their advance.  To look on people's faces is just priceless.

 

 

  Heavy bolter used to be a great weapon.  Now, since absolutely everyone and theri brother can ge twinlinked metric tons of :cussloads of dice OR high S low ap firepower by the bucketload, heavy bolter is still in my hearth...and on the shelf- waiting for it's moment 

[hallodx]

Assault cannon razorback is pretty good. Before Inquisitor out, a player tested Raven Guard razorback rush, and, his guardsmen opponent had a bad day.

Personally I'd say it should be a theme list if you are deploying razorback'S'. Simply one or two of them just make them easy target. Don't forget a fire warrior squad can wreck them, Lootas can do that too, plasma can blow them, marines can punch them too death...etc.

Just my thoughts, I believe someone play razorbacks a lot will correct me, and please do.

[Azash]

I always preferred the las/plas to all other turrets because of the versatility le fire power and its the only turret option that counts as two separate weapons. So if you take a weapon destroyed result you are left with the more than a super crappy expensive rhino.

 

That being said the razorbacks killer for me is its lack of firing ports. Armor has taken a hit in 6th to be sure with things like wave serpents and broadsides its to easy to glance an armr 11 tank into oblivion. The cost doesn't justify it. However a cheap old rhino with a gun port and a tac squad with heavy weapon is just as good most of the time.

 

The real question I asked myself is it worth the extra 40pts per model just to be able to move 6" and shoot at full BS because essentially that's what your getting. For me it wasn't so I hardly take them in games over 1000 pts now. In low pt games they work as a cheap predator substitute the if I'm in the mood for armored support.

[hallodx]

...

The real question I asked myself is it worth the extra 40pts per model just to be able to move 6" and shoot at full BS because essentially that's what your getting. For me it wasn't so I hardly take them in games over 1000 pts now. In low pt games they work as a cheap predator substitute the if I'm in the mood for armored support.

That why we see few razorback after 6th. Raven Guard and White Scar Khan was a small chance razorback can go back to table but GW screwed them again :-/

[Garath]

  I can field them , but then again I play DA and we get the Power Field Generator. So 2 of them supported by that thing are ressilient enough.

 

  BA make them fast?  Iron hands give them "it will not die" and repair them ?

 

  Handing out ideas here....

[Iron Father Ferrum]

  I can field them , but then again I play DA and we get the Power Field Generator. So 2 of them supported by that thing are ressilient enough.

 

  BA make them fast?  Iron hands give them "it will not die" and repair them ?

 

  Handing out ideas here....

 

Yeah, mine with CT:IH usually last a fair amount into a game (my current list has three Razorbacks, an LRR, a Rhino, and a podded Ironclad), but that's because I apparently have an uncanny knack for rolling IWND.

[tdemayo]

I like Las/plas best myself.  If I'm taking a Razorback, I'm giving up being able to transport a full-squad in exchange for some long-range fire power.  The lascannon is excellent for punching vehicles at range.  The plasma-gun is great at killing medium armor or MEQ.  The lascannon and the plasmagun are both AP 2, making for excellent synergy when firing at MEQ or TEQ targets.  Morever, the plasmagun is twin-linked.  So it is pretty good as a secondary defense against light Fliers.  The model does not come in the box, but it is easy to convert with some extra plasma pistols.  Chop one lascannon off and glue two plasma muzzles side by side, so the cowling hides the join you've created.

 

Twin-linked lascannons are my second choice.  The twin-linking reroll makes them better at killing vehicles at range.  It also makes them into a plausible secondary AA choice against fliers anywhere on the board.

 

Assualt cannons are okay, I guess, but I hate having to try to roll 6s to get strength or AP.  I'd rather just screw it, and take the las/plasmagun instead.

 

Heavy bolters are, in my opinion, close to useless.  They get one lousy shot more than a storm bolter, have mediocre strength and AP, and are terrible at killing MEQ or TEQ.  At RoF 3 aren't exactly going to reap down light infantry either. And for this, I give up transport space? I'd rather have 4 more Marines in a rhino, with an extra heavy/special slot! 

 

Can I still put a heavy flamer or a multimelta on a Razorback?  Interestingly different, but not very good.

 

I currently have 6 razorbacks: 4 have las/plas, 2 have TL Lascannons.  None have Assault Cannons or Heavy Bolters.

 

My biggest problem with Razorbacks (and Rhinos) isn't that they cost too much -- it's that when they die, they shed first blood.  And when it's a kill point scenario -- yuck.  I've played many games where just having my Rhinos on the board essentially guaranteed me a loss. 

 

Also, there's a mismatch, I think, between the role of a Tactical Squad and the role of a Razorback.  The Razorback should hang back, hugging cover if it can get it, moving as little as possible.  I want my Tactical Squads to move forward, disembark, and fire bolters and special weapons.  They need to be big enough to absorb some casualties.  So I tend to relegate Razorback to my Devastator Squads or to small Tactical or Combat squads that I want to park on an objective.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Can I still put a heavy flamer or a multimelta on a Razorback?  Interestingly different, but not very good.

 

IA2v2 has the multi-melta Razorback. Not sure about the heavy flamer one, I think that's in the Codex.

[Garath]

Heavy flamer?

 

 Yup, for free, and it's twin inked too

[greggles]

Issue with the heavy flamer is the same issue with the flamer immolator. It's difficult to get maximum use of that template when you have to fire it from the turret barrel. It causes its effective range to drop significantly. If flamer weapons on vehicles were all torrent (which you'd think they would be), it would be an excellent choice.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That's a function of maneuver on the part of the player, positioning the chassis in such a way that you're firing off the side of the vehicle rather than the front and thus not short-changing yourself.

 

...which raises an interesting rules question, actually.  I distinctly remember the rules stating that you can't lay a template so that it's touching friendly models, so does that mean that the flamer template off a top-mounted turret has to be forward-placed -- a sort of mini-torrent -- so that it's not touching the hull of the tank?

[greggles]

That's a function of maneuver on the part of the player, positioning the chassis in such a way that you're firing off the side of the vehicle rather than the front and thus not short-changing yourself.

It doesn't count the "firing unit" as a friendly unit. But yes, positing is very key, but even from a side shot, you are still dropping the flamer template at least an inch. It becomes an incredibly shot ranged weapon and loses a lot of it's potential. This is ignoring the fact that it can't snap shot, so you are left with a weapon that is unable to be effectively used for most of a game. (vs a heavy bolter, with a 36 inch range, that can be firing off pot shots continuously).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Eh.  It's immaterial to me, since I'd never take a heavy flamer on a Razorback anyway; I'm a las-plas kind of a guy.

[Disruptor_fe404]

It doesn't count the "firing unit" as a friendly unit. But yes, positing is very key, but even from a side shot, you are still dropping the flamer template at least an inch. It becomes an incredibly shot ranged weapon and loses a lot of it's potential. This is ignoring the fact that it can't snap shot, so you are left with a weapon that is unable to be effectively used for most of a game. (vs a heavy bolter, with a 36 inch range, that can be firing off pot shots continuously).

 

Do you mean firing model (as opposed to unit)? If you don't mean model, then that's definitely a sweet change in 6th.

[greggles]

You still have to avoid friendly models in the same unit (infantry). The vehicle bit is explained on page 78 fire points with template weapons. Says to ignore vehicle hull. Assume weapon was fired to clear the hull. (Same with flames turret)

[Azash]

Immolators are a bit better since the flamer is mounted towards the front allowing you to get the most out of the template. On a razorback tho...why if you really want a flamer a redeemer is so much better in every way. More expensive but you get what you pay for.

[Garath]

Interesting idea from Frontline gaming site - Infiltrating Raven guard with rhinos.  Nothing out of the ordinary, I know- but 60 marines in your face surely is a sound tactical idea.

   Check it out, it's under tactic corner in battle report Raven guard and SW vs Tau.

 

 ... and how does this corespond to Razorbacks?  I was watching it and  tought: What if they infiltrate Razorbacks with heav flamers? 

[hallodx]

Interesting idea from Frontline gaming site - Infiltrating Raven guard with rhinos.  Nothing out of the ordinary, I know- but 60 marines in your face surely is a sound tactical idea.

   Check it out, it's under tactic corner in battle report Raven guard and SW vs Tau.

 

 ... and how does this corespond to Razorbacks?  I was watching it and  tought: What if they infiltrate Razorbacks with heav flamers? 

Indeed that was nasty. WAS. 

 

......sorry just Inquisition hate -_-#

[Garath]

That is a very clever way of incorporating a chapter tactic into a strategy- and it's flexible,too.

 

 Razorback  could scout forward, or outflank, or just shimmy to the side before turn one to get LOS and a clear shot on important enemy pieces.  With RG chapter at least.