Chaos Termies - why say they suck?

[Montuhotep]

This is a straight-forward enough question, I think, but one that I can't figure out.

 

Aside from a few wargear differences (no CML, Storm Shields, Hammers or Assault Cannon), why does everyone I've read on here and elsewhere say that Chaos Termies are useless? Surely it's only because of the competing slots in the Elites section since, to my mind, Chaos Termies are wonderful things - varying squad sizes, power weapons that can be more versatile than fists, combi weapons and at close range you can argue that the combi-bolter is more reliable than the stormbolter any day of the week.

 

 Okay, sure, we don't have any fancy Land Raider variants to haul our lads around in, but since when has that been an overarching problem?

 

 Seems all I read about are either Termi-cide units or ignore them  completely. Am I missing something?

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Honestly I don't think you are missing much. I think there are a lot of people trying to get the most "bang for their buck" as far as units and points go. For instance, I like the look and fluff and feel of Thousand Sons squads. Points wise though they are expensive and you get quite a bit for that expense. However most people on the net discount them and say don't use them or if you do use them use them sparsely. I really think it comes down to they want to get the most out of their units so they only use them to there most "efficient" build or set up.

 

I've taken a unit of ten termi's with two Reapers and MoT because it fits my fluff and I like them escorting my sorcerer. At over 500 pts it is massively expensive but when I play a 2K point game with my friends they are always a major nightmare. I place them in the middle and march them straight at the opponent. Most competitive people would bring enough AP2 to remove the entire squad in one or two rounds of shooting. However what I've seen and found that the use to do this is "spamming" so to me it gets seriously boring to play against and I can't see how its fun for them to play but whatever works for them I guess.

 

Me I like using units I like and a big block of Termi's with escorting my ML3 Sorcerer. I probably wont ever win a tourney though either so take that for what you will.

 

I also think there was/is a lot of disappointment with the Chaos Codex on what they thought the codex should have been and what it is so peoples opinions are a bit biased or a lot biased. For me I see exactly what you are saying as far as how decent they are or can be. Space Wolves Termi's are considered pretty decent and they have pretty much the same set up as we do (with an option for SS but who cares?). Anyway that's how I see it. If you aren't ready to take on the uber Tau list of doom and the unit doesn't win you the game a lot of people don't rate them. I think they do just fine and are a lot of fun.

 

DoC

[Slayer le Boucher]

To make them usefull you must invest copious amount of points in it, and still they are not that good.

 

And the difference betwen our Old Godhammer LR and Sm Redeemer or Crusader is a big enough difference, whats better?, giving a ride to 5 Termies max? or 8?...

 

And because of that you can't give a Heavy weapon to the Termies, not if you plan to put them in the LR and put a Termi Lord in it, Termies now only can buy heavy weapons if they are a

[Warsmith Aznable]

They are OK as retinue, but much more effective as Termicide. As a non-retinue, non-Termicide unit they don't seem great because of competition for role along with transport problems and being outclassed by their equivalents in other armies.

[minionboy]

I quite like Chaos Terminators, but like most things in the book, they work best when they're kept as cheap as possible.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Don't listen too much to complainers. Termis are still useful imo, especially with a lot of plasma kombi-weapons.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Because they are.

 

You have to invest a big points investement to make them any good, and even then its not sure.

 

Limitation for having a Heavy weapon for each 5 models, makes it so that you can't have 5 termies +1 termi Lord in a LR, remember LR 5 Termies while Redeemer/Crusader 8...

 

The only alternative to the LR would be a Stormeagle, since it can pack 20 models, but not everyone can afford to buy and mount a FW Stormeagle( this thing is a real nightmare to assemble) or even have the skills to Kitbash/Scratchbuild it.

 

So if you want to use 5+1 Lord, they will have too footslog or coming in DS, where for a whole turn they will stand there, and will have no Scatter mitigation, since GW decided that an Army who has his bases and litteraly live in the Warp, knows jack-:cuss about how to NOT scatter when coming from the Warp, while Loyalist who doesn't trust the Warp, have Beacons handed out to them like freakin candies.

 

Also a 5 unit with Lord will be some pointshack, so you don't want to be too close the ennemy to avoid being assaulted, so any combi melta you have will be virtually useless.

 

So in the end the better way to use termies are alas has Termicides, 3 with combi-meltas, no other options, DSing dangerously close from ennemy vehicles and Melting them.

 

Now you still can play them if you want, but never expect too much from them, since a lot of armies have enough fire power to put some heavy saturation that your termies will end up with 4-6 Hits per models...

 

But its true that in other occasiosn and giving the circumstances, they can do good enough to buy you time or put a stop to an ennemy unit advance.

 

How is ee them is like some sort of re-inforcement to help out, but not expecting much from them, rather then teh Spearhead assault elite unit they should been.

 

Its not hard, since 5th i din't play any of my termies since then...

[Fibonacci]

They are OK as retinue, but much more effective as Termicide. As a non-retinue, non-Termicide unit they don't seem great because of competition for role along with transport problems and being outclassed by their equivalents in other armies.

 

 

I quite like Chaos Terminators, but like most things in the book, they work best when they're kept as cheap as possible.

 

++1's

 

If they suck you are using them wrong.  They will never be an 8 strong assault squad with 3++ so don't to make them into their loyalist counterparts.  Keep them cheap with a good punch; they already come with enough defense that they take a significant amount of your opponents time to deal with them.  All this happens on the the other side of the table where they arrived via deepstrike.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If you absolutely must take a big unit of them and not deep strike, take Ahriman or Huron and give the termies priority on your Infiltrating.  When the codex first dropped, I was doing that with an eight-man squad with MoT.  Anyone without a Vindicator or a bucket-load of plasma cannons hated life.

[FENRISÚLFUR]

If you absolutely must take a big unit of them and not deep strike, take Ahriman or Huron and give the termies priority on your Infiltrating.  When the codex first dropped, I was doing that with an eight-man squad with MoT.  Anyone without a Vindicator or a bucket-load of plasma cannons hated life.

 

 

What about using Cypher attached to a group like this? He would help keep them alive with Shrouded, get them close with Infiltrate, and also allow them to get out of any combat that was not condusive to their setup with Hit and Run.

[Slayer le Boucher]

WHile Cypher could allow them to Outflank, they can't can't join Cypher and infiltrate.

 

The way the deployement process works for units that Infiltrates is that they are deployed AFTER all the units has been deployed.

 

So since Termies don't have Infiltration, they are deployed with the rest of the army, then once everyone on the board, you then deploy units that can infiltrate.

 

Now the thing is, if you say" okay Cypher will join them and they will then Infiltrate" nope does'nt work like that, because that would be a redeployement, wic the Infiltration rules doesn't allow.

 

The only solution is to not deploy the Termies, but then coming the Infiltration deployement, its too late, they can't be deployed because they don't have infiltration on their own.

 

So they stay in reserve, there you can make Cypher join them, and decide to Ourflank the whole thing.

 

i know its a curious and tedious process and ruling, but it is how it is.

 

The only way to make them Infiltrate with or even without Cypher is by takin Arhy or Huron and give them Infiltration using their Warlord trait.

[Fibonacci]

Just to clarify.... termicide (or suicide squad) is just a name. They get dropped in places with little to no support and can often take an overwhelming amount of return fire before they can move but that is not what you intend to happen; you are just prepared for that to happen. Often they are used to pop transports for your advancing spawn, khornedog allies or whatever you have closing for assault. They may drop in deep in the enemy ranks but if all goes successful they will be supported by the assault unit by the end of the turn when the assault unit makes its consolidation move.

If you spend 125 points you can cause some damage but afterwards, one of those two things will happen. Either they are wiped away from 4+ units firing on them or they fall in with the advancing troops. If you spend 250 points on the squad, nothing really changes. Either they are swept away by return fire or they fall in with advancing units. Fewer points risked for the same reward makes a compelling argument for their use.

 

[edit] wow ... way too many typos.  Sorry about that.  Blood sugar must be spiking.

[the jeske]

unless someone wants to run them there is never enough points to take them and an actualy working unit does not come cheap and has all the problems other csm units have [no ATKNF , no storm shields , no good tank characters to lead the unit etc].

[FENRISÚLFUR]

WHile Cypher could allow them to Outflank, they can't can't join Cypher and infiltrate.

 

The way the deployement process works for units that Infiltrates is that they are deployed AFTER all the units has been deployed.

 

So since Termies don't have Infiltration, they are deployed with the rest of the army, then once everyone on the board, you then deploy units that can infiltrate.

 

Now the thing is, if you say" okay Cypher will join them and they will then Infiltrate" nope does'nt work like that, because that would be a redeployement, wic the Infiltration rules doesn't allow.

 

The only solution is to not deploy the Termies, but then coming the Infiltration deployement, its too late, they can't be deployed because they don't have infiltration on their own.

 

So they stay in reserve, there you can make Cypher join them, and decide to Ourflank the whole thing.

 

i know its a curious and tedious process and ruling, but it is how it is.

 

The only way to make them Infiltrate with or even without Cypher is by takin Arhy or Huron and give them Infiltration using their Warlord trait.

 

 

At best this rule is debatable and should be discussed with your opponent as to the way it should be handled. If an agreement can't be reached its left to the dice off. GW needs to add this to an FAQ, as its not totally clear in the BRB.

 

That aside (this topic is about Terminators and not infiltration rules), I do think the best way to run CSM termies is cheap and built to fill a role. If you need them to open up tanks, termicide with combi-meltas. Hunting MC's, take combi-plasma and call it a day.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

It really comes down to what kind of player you are, and what kind of games you like to play. I'm casual myself, so I love running terminators, in any army, when ever I can. But The only grumble I have with them is that they are a costly unit. BUT, the 5 point combis are nice. Eat it Sternguard!!

 

End of Line

[Trevak Dal]

In defense of the Godhammer, we're the only codex that can take less than 5 terminators in a unit, so we can still fit 4 + a TA character.

 

I think the biggest drawback is the Champion of chaos rule (aka, "Accept any challenge, no matter the odds") We can't refuse a challenge, so effectively our unit of terminators can be hung up when they are sent to assault a Monstrous Creature character, and lose whatever buffs they may have had and PAID GOOD POINTS FOR PHIL KELLY.

 

I don't want to go off on a rant here, but everybody likes to say how 'great' Phil Kelly is, but I just see him as the bastard who took away my combo-ability of Running Khorne lord with Noise Marines to always hit at initiative 5 (after they "upgraded" furious charge), and then proceeded to Nickel and Dime us with options with this codex left and right-but they took stuff out and held stuff back so it wouldn't be "too powerful" (except the Damnable Turkey).

 

So...yeah, its not chaos that sucks, it's Phil Kelly who sucks.  And all those "Church of Kelly" clowns out there-the Tau codex has synergy.  The Eldar Codex has synergy.  The Space Marine codex has synergy.The Tyranid Codex has synergy.  The Space Wolf Codex has synergy.  The Chaos Codex does not have synergy for crap, and you constantly have to fight to make a useful list it feel like.  

 

I want that assclown Phil to explain why Mutilators have slow and purposeful.  I want him to explain the lack of a Open Topped dedicated transport (or drop pods).  I want him to explain point inconsistencies across the book, and why Veterans wasn't a 1 point (if it had to cost anything) per model across the board.  If I though I could get away with it, I'd just go through with some white out and say "oh there was an errata because GeeDub and their pet monkey Phil Kelly were wrong"

 

 

So, why do terminators suck?
 

Because we're shackled by a terrible rule ("Champions" of Chaos), that belongs with another army (Black Templars) that ties our hands tactically, and then we're further forced into this bad rule because we can't NOT take champions.

 

Our Codex sucks, because WE FOLLOW THE CODEX ASTARTES MORE THAN LOYALIST MARINES and get NONE of the benefits from it.  We're crappier loyalists who survive on the few characters that old Phil didn't manage to screw up.

[AtlasDM]

Fibonacci nailed it. I've said the same thing about other units in the codex. If your terminators suck, it's because you're playing them wrong. A lot of folks grief over the fact that they aren't exact counterparts to the loyalist terminators. I for one am glad they aren't copy and pasted from the SM codex. I would feel like I wasted a ton of money buying the damn thing if it was just a spiky loyalist codex. Besides, if every unit that wore terminator armor was the same things would get boring.

[the jeske]

Could you post one of those ways to play them ?

 

 

 

 

Eat it Sternguard!!

only sternguards can pod and combat squad when getting out , and have HQs to play around with them being scoring and have something else then just one shot combis . On top of all the stuff marines normaly get[chapter tactics, ATSKNF].

[Lexington]

I've seen a lot of talk about the Land Raider, and even some about the Storm Eagle, but what about the Spartan as a delivery method?

[Warsmith Aznable]

I used to run a 2 LR list in 5th that hit the enemy lines like an extinction event level meteor. Abaddon and his Terminator friends in one LR with Khârn and MoT LC Chosen in the other. Changes to power weapons in 6th edition and the new C:CSM change to make Marked HQs unable to join units with a different Mark ruined all that fun, though. I can still run a version of it, but it's usually not effective enough to warrant the point investment.

[Sception]

They're expensive, have few wounds, and generally poor delivery options. They lack the options that make loyalist terminators decent (and even they aren't great these days), while chaos options tend to be simultaneously worse and more expensive.

 

The base cost and combi weapons are decent, though, so if you can get around the delivery issue, they aren't exactly bad. That means msu deep strike termicide or infiltrate via huron/ahriman, since our raiders can't carry enough to be meaningful, and without deep strike mitigation you don't want to deploy larger squads that way. And while infiltrating termies can be a bear, it's not exactly fluffy.

 

So theissueis less that they can't be effectively run, and more that they can't be effectively run in the larger deep striking retinues seen in the fluff, and that many of their thematically defining options are either lousy or just way overpriced on them (reaper, vets, marks, BoD for black legion players).

 

They're still probably our best elites unit, but that speaks more to how lousy the competition is than anything else. Even with termicide or infiltrating termie units not being lousy, you'll still find that they rarely fit into your lists after you've taken the units you need more, at least imo. I ran them regularly in third, fourth, and fifth, but in sixth it just doesn't seem worth the bother.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I'd still like to be able to field them as Troops, though. It would be fun in small games to run an elite strike force type thing.

[FENRISÚLFUR]

I'd still like to be able to field them as Troops, though. It would be fun in small games to run an elite strike force type thing.

 

This is one of the things that either taking Abaddon as your warlord or the BL supplement should have done, along with address deepstrike mitigation.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

I'd still like to be able to field them as Troops, though. It would be fun in small games to run an elite strike force type thing.

 

This is one of the things that either taking Abaddon as your warlord or the BL supplement should have done, along with address deepstrike mitigation.

 

Taking Chosen as troops without Abaddon is still pretty good, though.

[FENRISÚLFUR]

 

 

I'd still like to be able to field them as Troops, though. It would be fun in small games to run an elite strike force type thing.

 

This is one of the things that either taking Abaddon as your warlord or the BL supplement should have done, along with address deepstrike mitigation.

 

Taking Chosen as troops without Abaddon is still pretty good, though.

 

 

I completely agree, its nice to have "better" troops with out the Abby Tax but a far cry from what could have been done. Not complaining though, as I'm just a casual player looking for a fun narrative game.