Cpt_Reaper Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Hail brethren. With the release of the latest incarnation of Tyranids I find myself scratching my head in worry. The resident Tyranid player in our group has told me after reading his new codex that he has found a way to improve his army and "lock the opponent" by turn 3. So after many hours of attempting to refine my anti-horde list I come to you with two questions: 1) Is this possible with the new codex 2) How can I prevent this? What I do know is a few unit combos he uses. - "General Raam": His Hive Tyrant "Exodia" walks up the center of the field with a flock of gargoyles surrounding him to grant a poor man's invuln cover save. Tyrant armed with Lash, Bonesword, Heavy Venom cannon - Trygon followed by smaller units from hole - Tyrannofex - Warriors+Prime with lashwhips+boneswords- Carnifex spam - Lictor/Deathleaper - Genestealers (Thank the Emperor they cannot assault from infiltrating in 6th) - Tervigon Rather than place restrictions on your advice, we can use this topic to help fellow Unforgiven combat the Hive Mind. What are some good anti-bug units we have? Good tactics, combos etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I haven't seen the Nid Codex and despite complaints about it I think it will still be a tough bone to chew. As for your problem... Drop a full 10 men terminator squad with belial and 2 Heavy flamers. That should take the cover of the Warlord. Good thing is that it also creates a major threat to the general itself and it will be tough to remove, leaving your army unmolested. This is just a wacky idea, but might work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvena Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 dakka dakka and dakka ? i tried a nasty tri wing list with 2 crusader techy on bike +PFG dakka banner, RWBK for reduced tougness, and a (stromtalon oups sorry) Dark Talon (who only pay his price beacuse he has an hurricane bolter, and i manage to get him in range of the salvo banner during 3 turn), it went pretty well. the main tactic was : I crippled with tons of bolter shots all his normal MC, (carniflex spam i got 1 each turn with all the dakka...) I insta kill T5 multiwound bugs with BK, I have ignores swarms ... they don't hurt that much I did'nt killed the prince with too many bodyguard, i avoid it, and make them run as much as possible. Focus fire ! kill one unit/MC each turn ! On the 2 first tour he only have 2 shooty & unbreakable venerable LRC (tech and pfg hiding) to shoot at. i also made a "refused flank" ? deployment, wich help to put more pressure on a single point. genestealer were not that scary.. i haven't face trygon, tyranoflex, but there all a big pain. Tervigon should die with focus fire. full man Termies as recomanded by chapelain lucifer seems a good choice also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Didn't think Monstrous Creatures could claim a Cover Save unless the intervening unit is half it's height or more? Also pretty sure the Gargoyle's fling bases wouldn't be counted for that calculation...... Alvena, Dark Angels don't get the Stormtalon. If you allied one in, it wouldn't benefit from the Banner of Devastation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvena Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 youre right i was using the pendant of nephilim the one with the rift cannon and the hurricane bolter... the dark talon ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 Didn't think Monstrous Creatures could claim a Cover Save unless the intervening unit is half it's height or more? Also pretty sure the Gargoyle's fling bases wouldn't be counted for that calculation...... According to the Tyranid player as it is not stated that an MC has to be half like that of a vehicle, it runs off infantry rules being 25% obscured as well as being partially obscured by intervening models. The gargoyles may be off the ground but they still obscure the Tyrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Didn't think Monstrous Creatures could claim a Cover Save unless the intervening unit is half it's height or more? Also pretty sure the Gargoyle's fling bases wouldn't be counted for that calculation...... According to the Tyranid player as it is not stated that an MC has to be half like that of a vehicle, it runs off infantry rules being 25% obscured as well as being partially obscured by intervening models. The gargoyles may be off the ground but they still obscure the Tyrant. This is true, the model only has to be 25% obscured. Also, vehicles get cover from 25% obscured as well now, determined by facing (see the BRB for the pretty pictures to illustrate this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 I'm thinking a LSV or two might be a decent unit with two glaring issues. At 24" I am in range of his big guns and THAT THRICE DAMNED TYRANNOFEX!!! That one model makes me uneasy about taking a vehicle of any kind. I'm thinking either DWA in some hammernators or drop pod in my ven dread to smack it down/tie it up. Good plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbenner Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Well, I took on the March10k Double Crusader list with my 5th edition bugs list brought upnto 6th ed rules... It was a roflstomp, i feel that there are ways of dealing with bugs, but it is going to take either quality of fire, or quantity of fire. CMLs for deathwing are going to ned more wounds then anything else. Dakka pole for the other builds... I need to take on some of the local nid players and report back, but I think my DW list wont change much... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You can always try a gunline furthest away from the bugs and spam tactical bolters as they get closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafoo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Kill nids the same way. I actually dropped my nid collection after the new release. They got a big nerf. Melta, missiles, plasma choose your heavies they end the bugs. A walking tyrant with no guard goes down hard. Flamers kill small bugs. Get those carnifexes out of synapse and watch them eat themselves. With a lot of focus on deep striking kill his lictors so they scatter. Greenwing should win every time. Kill synapse, focus fire highest threat MC's, stay out of melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I never found NIds as easy to play against as some people claim they are. (I think it's mostly Nid players that say this ;) ) I will tell you this though, as a Ravenwing player I could give my Nid opponents quite a thrashing with the Dakka pole and 'Hit and Run' is like having the Emperor's Backhand to dispose of anything that out paces you and -tries- to lock you down. Hit and run almost army wide, is quite strong in this particular situation. Here's the thing though... that list you mention... It doesn't look particulary hard core. I will say I've seen a lot worse... I don't mean to take what you faced lightly, however please keep in mind that while -fielding- an elite style list, all numbers related armies will be your bane. So you/we/us are kind of starting in a hole right there. Secondly, I don't see how gargoyles are giving a cover save to a Hive Tyrant... those things are big, and gargoyles are like... enlarged bats.... are you sure he's really covering 25%? I'm sure you guys play within the rules so I'm just asking out of curiosity for myself. I was going to start an anti Nid tactica..... as I have 3 regular players of them that have decided to not take the interweb wisdom of 'Nids are bad' and are actually doing VERY well with them. The fact is that just like every codex GW re-releases they make sure to change what you bought, and/or how you configured it. So just like so many other codices, the Nids just aren't fielded like they used to be. I started my response by saying I -used- to give Nids a horrid run with my Ravenwing, but now things are very different. Actually I think Deathwing are presented with the same threat I am...... Mawloc's! This unit alone is giving me a major headache, plus it needs to be FAQ'd soon! We're talking about an army that exists on an improved cover save (that would be my army) versus multiple units that you cannot stop, or prevent, that hit you with an AP2 large blast.... up to two times each... x 2-3 units. Another friend is working the cheaper (approx. 40pts cheaper) Dakka-fex squads... these things are hard as a rock, and deal immense punishment to not just elite lists, but their weight of fire alone makes them a huge threat which can be extremely hard to get rid of. I'm working on how to counter this stuff..... the Mawloc is a gross unit though. Rad grenades are mandatory for me... but the mawloc can be clever positioned so you know it won't be able to arrive and you attempt to get two templates out of each one, and hope it goes back in reserve. It's also sketchy on where the opponent places it on misshaps... it's gotta be errata'd. It's another example of bad (obvious!) playtesting on this unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Warrior Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I feel in my limited experience in this edition that we have the best tools between dakka pole for the little bugs and rad grenades and bombs for the bigger gribblies. So the big thing to remember when any horde army is threat assessment and not panicking in the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyocum Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Never hurts to have Belial drop in with a maxed Deathwing squad carrying 2 heavy flamers to help waste a mob of bugs, either. Nothing says absolute hate like 11 twin-linked Terminators, with 2 of them being templates re-rolling wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Well, I took on the March10k Double Crusader list with my 5th edition bugs list brought upnto 6th ed rules... It was a roflstomp, i feel that there are ways of dealing with bugs, but it is going to take either quality of fire, or quantity of fire. CMLs for deathwing are going to ned more wounds then anything else. Dakka pole for the other builds... I need to take on some of the local nid players and report back, but I think my DW list wont change much... Paul A couple points on that: 1. You had a pair of dakka flyrants...those hose my bike libby like nobody's business 2. Smite whiffed. Your particular list had my number, but a nid list with no more than 4 TMCs is well within the ability of dearhwing to beat. The best tool we have for the job is Belial with Sword of Secrets. He should grind off a dozen T6 wounds over the course of a game if he doesn't get insta-gibbed by a smash attack. What should blow nids off the board is three crusaders and three thundernator squads with a dakkapole and champion in the center squad. 84 twinlinked shots per turn and 12 thunderhammers should cover all the bases... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I feel in my limited experience in this edition that we have the best tools between dakka pole for the little bugs and rad grenades and bombs for the bigger gribblies. So the big thing to remember when any horde army is threat assessment and not panicking in the battle.Well, I'd say that the Friendship Standard for the salvo fire, and plasma guns/cannons for the bigger gribbles should be enough. The best they seem to get is T6 or maybe T7 in a rare case. You might even consider taking along the Dakkaflyer against them since their anti-air is horrible, horrible enough to rival our own anti-air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I would say that a dakka flyrant is decent anti-air...and that the dappapole makes the standard boltgun a T6 killer...sure, it needs 6s to wound, but at four shots per gun, you're inflicting .5 wounds per gun, and that adds up fast in a dakkapole list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbenner Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I think dealing with a Dual TL Devourer is something you have to be ready for. 1) It's an AMAZING sniper, good movement, 360 degree arc, 12 TL S6 shots is going to ruin anyone's day.. 2) It's T6 with a 3+ save.. But, remember... After you finish your "To Hit" rolls, you need to make sure your opponent checks to see if it falls. That's basically a free wound if it falls, plus the others. Once the turkey is out of the sky, blast it to bits before moving onto the next target. Don't waste volume of fire on the Flyrant, keep making pot-shots until he hits the ground and THEN make him hurt. Also, one thing I've noticed with a lot of players is that they like to put flying MCs out on a limb. Once you put them on the ground, they're just another crappy bump in the road... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 After speaking to my tyranid opponent we began discussing the Black Knights and their 3-hit combo (rad grenade, plasma talon, assault) and he is worried a large squad of Black Knights can wipe out MCs quite easily (assuming they can get close enough). Are they a good nidzilla counter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbenner Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Yes, Black Knights are a good answer, especially for Ravenwing, and the 3 combo is great. Rad Charge brings a MC from T6 to T5 This means your HoW will wound on 5s instead of 6s, not great, but hey. This also means your Plasma Talons will wound on 2s instead of 3s. I'll take this anyday. What makes this risky is a bad scatter will lose your rad charge. Most MCs are S5+, and can get to T10 if they want to wreck you, so a small squad is risky You can still lose models to Gets Hot... Not a bad idea at all though, I'd try it. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 After speaking to my tyranid opponent we began discussing the Black Knights and their 3-hit combo (rad grenade, plasma talon, assault) and he is worried a large squad of Black Knights can wipe out MCs quite easily (assuming they can get close enough). Are they a good nidzilla counter? I believe I touched on this in my post above. Tell your friend not to worry. He is one Mawloc deepstrike away from taking that squad clean off the table.... no cover saves included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Warrior Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I do not have access to the 'Nid codex and I'm not sure if this has been covered so please forgive me if it has. How many 2+ saves are available to the Tyranid characters and bigger gribblies? I ask because I love silly pieces of wargear and the monster slayer of Caliban makes me giggle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retaliation Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 The tyrannofex is the only unit in the entire nid codex that has a 2+ save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Warrior Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Wow no extended carapace or anything? What about eternal warrior? I don't trust the rumor mill after I was deceived by the gaunt birthing creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retaliation Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 No eternal warrior (except swarmlord) and the only other source of a 2+ save is one of their "bio-artefacts" (only during the assault phase and never twice in a row (select a buff like obliterators)). Basically you'll never actually see it. On the other hand I would say you'd never see the monster slayer of caliban so what do I know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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