6th ed killed pure deathwing

[andrewclark85]

Hi sorry new to this board but been playing since 2nd edition.

Basically I have found that the points increase of everything deathwing coupled with the points decrease of every other early release since has put my deathwing on the shelf. Where at 1500 I could have 2 crusaders and 3 squads of terminators belief and chaplain. But with belief being +60 points. Squads assault cannons cyclones th/S's all went +5 points chaplains got worse and went up 20 and land raiders went up 30 or 40 if you want the mm back I have found all of these changes coupled with every other army getting cheaper models and war gear it has killed the deathwing. Anybody else having these issues? Sorry about the grammar I'm on a MOBILE!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think it didn't killed it but made things more difficult, specially for 1500 points games. For 1850+ DW can still put up a fight. YMMV, of course.

[Eternal Warrior]

With the super shooty meta we live in and the new casualty removal (closest goes first, barring lookout sir!) rules And being able to snap shoot at charging units I think things are a lot more tactical. A terminator with a stormshield can tank shots while the assault/plasma cannons do their work. As for chaplains.... I shed a tear. Being a template player for almost 20 years my heart is broken. Librarians are the new hotness with all of the cool stuff they can do. Belial and a terminator librarian are your HQ choices if you are rolling pure Deathwing.

[andrewclark85]

Most 1500 lists now have between 10 an I've seen dark elder with 22 ap2 shots per turn which generally more termie killing shots than you can fit termies in a list. Any time I play deathwing my storm bolters kill an average of 8 - 12 models then around 15 ap2 rounds sail in which is usually enough to kill half my list sometimes more. Then next turn my 4 guys left kill 2 and take another 15 ap2 shots and im tabled and it's been every time I use pure deathwing for the last 8 months

[Pbenner]

A good chunk of those AP2 weapons are short range. Yes, they will have some lances, but an optimized Death wing List abusing mechanics can handle it.

 

When I play my local friend who is D. Eldar allied with Eldar, I see this kind of list with a nasty ass core unit of wraith blades tricked out. CMLs carry this game for me. I use Belial in my Command Squad as an anchor and deep strike around him. Using TL to hammer missiles home. I then should get his gun boats down and be set to weather one round and get another set of missiles before having to root units out of the Cover they die in.

 

Long story short, haters gonna hate?

 

Paul

[ValourousHeart]

Try mixing up your tactics. I too have had games where I lost over half of my army on turn one, I think we all have. But because of my willingness to change on the fly I was able to pull out ties and even wins.

 

However I have also tabled a guy on turn one. Which I know wasn't fun for him. My dice just had sixes on every face that day. So I don't mind losing either.

 

It might also be that the List you are facing is your kriptonite. And you just have to face the fact that you can't win. But then you start playing a different game.... No I don't mean rage quite GW, I mean change your mission, strategy, tactics, and objectives. Create a way to obtain a moral victory even if you can't win the battle.

 

There is no reason that both players can't leave the table happy with their performance and a sense of accomplishment.

 

*edit* spelling

[andrewclark85]

2 nites ago I played space wolves which was 4 tack squads with 2 plasma guns in each. 7th termies with grandmaster 2 rune priests with an inquisitor detachment with 2 inquisitors and a dread knight. Turn 1 got pelted with 8 Plas shots 6 termies down 14 to go. My turn kill 2 space wolves my rolls were bad. Goes for charge he does over watch 3 Plas shot land cos he has re roll all missed to hit and wound on every squad get charge range. He rolls a dice a 6. am like what's that for he then tells me that he has loads of psycotrope nades and me terminators roll :cuss and kill themselves the one guy left gets owned by counter attack with re roll everything. My second squad gets out of a land raider and does his dread knight. Loosing 3 termies I have 7 left and raider he still has 36 specs wolves all his grey knight termies and all inquisitors. His turn. 3 spells kill my 7 terminators. Tabled.

the bit I was seething at was 1. he didn't tell me about his grenades until his trap worked gloriously and 2. 15 points killed 6 terminators in less than a heartbeat and 2 he asked me to go easy on him cos it's a new army so I brought my most fragile list and he utterly embarrassed me to the point where I'm wondering if I should just sell my army and :cuss Warhammer off a lot of the new dark angels book is over costed and underpowered where other books newer ones are the polar opposite. Look at our comp master compared to ultramarine captain for a good example.

[andrewclark85]

What is the point in a 10 man 500 point squad of terminators If 15 points of Matt ward gear can undo the whole thing. Without having to roll to hit. Where is the on a 2+ you auto win a game for 15 points in the dark angels codex by the way I have 4 greening 2 ravening and 4k now in the cupboard wing so I have choices.

[Master Avoghai]

First off you must assume that GW made 40k 6th ed to be balanced (as much as a game with 12 races + 4 variants could be balanced) at 1850-2000.

So if you limitate yourselfby playing 1500, you don't start in the best condition.

 

Then like valourousheart said : it's also a matter of tactics and game evolution. I've never remembered DE to be the top army even when they were released, now in the current meta with Taudar lists they work better...

Maybe like VH said it's just your nemesis. Try against other lists.

Maybe it's also the terrain you use. If you play with a WHFB-like terrain (ie : 2 hills, 2 forests and one house in the center of the table), you'll be totally disadvantaged.

 

I also disagree on the point of raise costs and comparison : CML has raised but gained one shot. The captain in codex SM is maybe more powerful (but let me doubt of it), but no other character can make termi scoring.

 

6th Ed is a matter of deployment and saturation. Use your assault DW well to be on the right time on the right place. Identify your primary targets and take profit to the maximum from the reroll and the split fire.

[IndigoJack]

Deathwing have always been a hard army to play. Even after the 5th ed storm shield FAQ, they weren't exactly taking tournaments by storm. The biggest problem DW have in 6th isn't AP2 shots, it's the fact that everyone else is getting cheaper while we're staying more or less the same. I'm going to be honest, if you've been tabled every time you try to run pure DW, it's probably not the army. When it comes to DW, you have to play smart. Every mistake you make could cost you big. Use terrain to you're advantage. Run smaller squads. This makes you're firepower more efficient and increases your field saturation, making it harder for a few units to shoot you off the board. I'm not going to say I'm a great player, but I do pretty well with my DW. I usually either win, or loose by only a couple victory points. Granted, by the end of the game I usually don't have a lot of models left, but that's just how DW are.

 

From you're post about the SW/GKs, it seems like you usually play at 2000pts.  If so, 20 terminators isn't enough boots on the ground. I usually run 26 and a could land raiders to block LoS from the opponents shooting. Also, when I DWA I do so turn 2, and always try and go second. This robs my opponent of two full turns of shooting at my terminators. By turn 2 my units in the LRCs are already assaulting, and hopefully they're beating units that threaten me the most in the shooting phase. By turn 3 the rest of my army is either assaulting or moving into positions to block LoS to my opponents threatening units. Turn 4 and 5 are spent moving onto objectives and clearing my opponent off of them (or at least contesting them on my part). This is the general tactic that I play by. Movement is key. As I've said before, You don't win with DW by tabling your'e opponent, you win by playing smart, and always playing the mission.

 

EDIT: Ah, I see you actually play 1500pts. Unfortunately, DW suffer at point levels below 1850, as there isn't a way to make them efficient enough to perform effectively. My advice still holds though, and it's not impossible to eek out a victory or two. 

[andrewclark85]

Master v captain

Master is 90 points gets s chains word

Captain is around 70 points and that gets you a master crafted relic blade and a free orbital bombard s10 ap1

Yeah belial can bring termies as troops but 190 points should get you eternal warrior

[andrewclark85]

It's looking like am not using enough terrain we always end up with fantasy trees and rocks and a few little hills but quite sparse maybe I should cover the board and see how it goes

[IndigoJack]

The rule book has rules for terrain placement. You divide the board into 6 sections. Each section gets D3 pieces of terrain. Whoever won the roll off for terrain gets to place first. Be sure you place terrain to block LoS, otherwise it just becomes a shooting gallery.

[Master Avoghai]

Just to figure out this is my table with the last conformation I've used for a game vs imperial guard

 

Hhttp://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Masteravoghai/Miscelleanous/57C394A9-5DD0-4E53-92DB-4D17177D206E-24647-00001E65A88CF355.jpg

 

Lots of LoS blocked and cover save as you can see

[ValourousHeart]

Andrew,

 

I have faces lots of opponents with my RW army. Yes it does not have the same challenges that DW has, but it also doesn't have the same advantages that DW has. And I can tell you the most demoralizing defeat was one where it came down to who got to deploy first.

 

The board had 4 pieces of terrain... 2 small one story buildings on my side that were not big enough to block LOS to anything larger than a dreadnought, but were so close to the board edge that you couldn't fit anything behind it... Oh and were on the extreme flanks of my DZ. The third piece of terrain was a crater in the center of the board.

 

The final piece of terrain was a 20 inch wide, 12 inch tall, and 6 inch deep building located front and center of my opponent's DZ.

 

It really didn't matter what he brought... I had expensive large base infantry and light vehicles all with short range weapons... And no cover to break up or shorten up his firing lanes. Fish in a barrel.

 

And even if I could close the size of his building meant that none of his infantry had to be at ground level.

 

Solve the terrain issue at your club/store and you will probably solve 60-75% of the problem.

 

The last part of the problem was that your "friend" asked you to go easy on him and then brings a WAAC list. I don't mind a little secrecy in games, but there is a limit.

 

For example I would like to know what is in my opponents army, and they should know what is in my army. But when the game starts I don't want my opponent to know what unit is in what transport. Not so that I can play the shell game, but because there wouldn't be a sign hanging on the side of the rhino saying 2 melta guns inside.

 

You should know what his army can do, but not what his plan is.

[Isiah]

It's the old Deathwing challenge isn't it: outgunned and outnumbered.

 

When I fist took to the First Company back in 4th Edition, Tau were my only real nemesis army. Now truthfully, most races can be on their day if I'm not careful :P. You also tend to find that your gaming style can play to your advantage v some opponents while hampering you against others. Basically you can't win 'em all.

 

As you mention there can be builds with a lot of good ranged AP2 within. You will always struggle in those situations. There are also some game scenarios where you will struggle too. Secondary objectives can be a lifesaver here. Always keep game objectives in mind.

 

Seems to me that more than previously terrain and deployment are as critical to pure DW as the list you actually play with!! If you play on largely snooker table smooth terrain free environments then yes you are going to be shot to blazes in short order. You need cover and LOS blockers. You need to be able to minimise what can shoot at you at any one particular time. In that respect the DW are the army to get right into the face of an opponent as quickly as possible - nothing else seems to work v a shooty opponent. 

 

Remember 6th Edition is geared to suit shooty armies as 5th Edition was geared to suit assault. The problem is pure DW is actually not geared to be one or the other - it has always done both moderately well - that was its strength - and then relied on its 2+/5+ saves to get by. Unfortunately game balance has shifted in the one direction where we have the least tools with which to counter it.

 

The only thing to recommend is try bigger 1850-2000 point games and see how that goes. Just keep at it. Be aggressive, hit hard and aim overwhelm an opponent on a flank (or other area of your choice). Don't try and be subtle.

 

Cheers

l

[SvenONE]

All an effort to make you buy more models from other lines!

 

In all seriousness, DW to me has always been a narrative list and never truly a power list.  Paladins cost a tad more and are bringing more to the table.  But yes, with all the AP2 and just general volume of fire pure DW is a tough list, especially at 1500.  The only time I ever really bring out pure DW is when my shop has apoc games and my friend (who also plays DW) brings his.  That's actually alot of fun at that level, again prior to that it's a little rough.  As others have said, 1850+ is the way to go.

[[TA]Typher]

DEATHWING FOREVER!

 

I think like most people have said the Deathwing does have it's draw backs. The meta in 6th has shifted to bountiful handfuls of dice each shooting phase. Dirt cheap shooting units and further unbalancing of armies (Thee Wraitknights and all troops in wave serpents anyone?), but the army is far from useless.

 

In low point games against armies with incredibly cheap troops it's more apparent. Last 1500 pt match I had against DE I got tabled on turn five. The amount of troops and speed of the army is tough to beat. At such low point costs any meaningful, dependable ranged anti-vehicle is hard to come by. But, play that same game at 1850-2500 and things change. While list abuse will always suck vs a specialized army like ours, it's still fun to play and even sweeter when you pull a victory.

 

But at the end of the day you still are playing the best of the 1st Legio..er.. Chapter.

 

I have a few batreps in my signature if you want to see the !st in action.

[march10k]

~shrug~ YMMV, as in "your META may vary." in my last four games, I've been tabled

twice (once in T6 in a game that I would have won if it'd ended after five turns). In the other two games, I came within two models of tabling my opponent, in both cases leaving an un-shot-at enemy flier alive.

 

One guy who tabled me had two flyrants, two tervigons, and two trygons, and the other had two wraithknights, a spiritseer, and serpent-mounted wraithguard. You can see how tough my meta is! And yet, I'm batting .500. Deathwing is rock solid, but more susceptible than most to the rock/paper/scissors aspect of 40k. Many other lists will have close games. Not DW. The technical score might be close, but, win or lose, either we will annihilate people without losing many models, or we'll just get blown off the board. I've had a game where my last surviving model secured victory in spite of not having removed more than half a dozen enemy models, and I've lost games where I secured a 10-1 casualty ratio in my favor. That, to me, is what makes Deathwing so interesting! You want reliable? Look elsewhere! You never know what's going to happen with a well-designed Deathwing list...with a bad DW list, you'll flat out lose, it's not very forgiving at all!

[Interrogator Stobz]

You might say Unforgiven too.

OT: I'm with March, we either do really well or get beasted. I must admit that gets really old after also playing the same in 5th. The odd close game wouldn't go astray, that could be achieved with some points balancing for sure.

[shabbadoo]

Just to figure out this is my table with the last conformation I've used for a game vs imperial guard

 

PIC

 

Lots of LoS blocked and cover save as you can see

That is really the minimum amount of terrain that should be used in a game.

[Master Avoghai]

Well they are not THAT numerous but rather big and placed in diagonal. They are also placed in the center. All that together means that you cannot have a line of sight crossing the entire table at any point...

To the minimum you get a cover save

[abraxus]

Master v captain

Master is 90 points gets s chains word

Captain is around 70 points and that gets you a master crafted relic blade and a free orbital bombard s10 ap1

Yeah belial can bring termies as troops but 190 points should get you eternal warrior

 

Captain does not get Orbital Bombardment, that's the C:SM Chapter Master.

C:DA Company Master versus C:SM Captain.

Both are 90 points, both have an identical stat-line and identical "stock" load-out (Bolt Pistol/Chainsword/Power Armor,/Grenades).

 

Yes, the C:SM has options to custom build their Chapter Master, but ours (Azreal) makes Deathwing and Ravenwing scoring.

 

I do agree that Belial should have Eternal Warrior, the guy was cut in half by an Orc Power Klaw and he's still ticking! and at 190 points It seems like EW should already be paid for