Prot Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I am pretty comfortable with my Ravenwing list making right now, but one thing I never found use for in a competitive environment was the Vengeance Speeder. So a simple question: Are you guys using it in a competitive situation (IE. Tournies or competitve environments)? How is it working for you? Personally I thought of trying it out again since I haven't revisited it since I got into DA. And I wonder if now that I have more experience with Ravenwing specificially if it would be worth trying again. Perhaps with the Shroud working on its side, that terrible AV might be a little more tolerable? I mean if we can get the Jink to... 3+? Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think it's even more unheard of to use than the Nephilim. ;) Personally I don't find a saving grace on an AV10 vehicle with 2 HP for 140 points with a 24" range. It's too easy to get it out of the equation by ether stunning it, keep away from it or destroying it. It's considerable size compared to a regular land seeder also doesn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 what lucifer said Plus it gets hot. it looks nice off the field though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvena Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 never used it. but i would use a lib on bike with pfg, to stay along with the vengeance, more than a darkshroud. Divination to reroll thos get hot and avoid to instant kill yourself, pfg for the other nasty thing shooting at you.. but still seem expensive for what it does. Edit: +1 with pyro x and chaplain lucifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 Used less than the Nephifail? Haha.... wow. It -does- look good on the battlefield.... My experiences have been nothing but negative but I was hoping I was missing something... anything that might tempt me to pull it out. But it just has so many negatives, it's amazing to think they playtested it at all. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The LSV costs like TWO LS and shoots and dies like ONE... For the same points of a LSV you can buy a Vindicator, one Predator or two WW, all better choices then the Land Speeder Failance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 In games 2000+ points i use three LSV and i Love them. My enemies hate them. Facing many Centurions the big guns are priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Haven Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 While I have never used the Vengeance, I have fought against it with my Tau during a group game 2v2. It was Necrons and Me versus Ravenwing and Black Templar. The RW players had the Vengeance and Shroud in the middle of a massed bike formation lead by Sammael that just rolled up the field (with the dakka pole) and simply annihilated the Necron player. I had to make several hard choices, go for the Shroud (the source of the ridiculous cover saves) or go for the Vengeance which was blowing away entire squads a turn. Those jink saves or the PFG saves kept them in the game til turn 4 when I had to resort to a solid shot railgun to shoot them both down. Obviously, the above input was entirely anecdotal, however after playing this hobby for 14 years, I really have a hard time simply writing a unit off. After reading the DA codex repeatedly and then testing it out on the table, it seems to me that this book has really designed units with the idea of overlapping support in mind. I felt the same with my Tau. For example look at the Shroud, its combat prowess is a joke BUT it supports everyone around it (granted, it is cheaper). Black Knights cost a bucket of points, but they allow for a precise strike of relentless twin-linked plasma in the right place at the right time. The internet may tell me certain units are bad, but I have seen on the table what those "bad" units can do when wielded by a good player. List construction is a vital aspect of 40k, but it is not the only one. Our RW player was holding own quite well against Necron shenanigans and my Tau firepower (Skyrays, FWs and suits galore). The Vengeance is about 15 more points than I would like. I compare it to the Vindicator, which in most lists is taken for the psychological affect it has on people. No one cares if the opponent focuses fire on it, it's supposed to die. Both the Vindicator and Vengeance offer large blast ap2 good, one has armor BUT one has a good cover save that can be made better. So, why is one vilified and one praised? As for the "Nephifail"? I intend to buy 1-2. It's only overcosted by 20ish points (comparing it to the Vendetta is silly as that is not a 6th ed codex and will be fixed in due time) and I can live with that (especially in light of the other quirks our rushed codex has). Just because a unit is not as "point and click" like a Helldrake does not invalidate it. I say, play with what you want. A good player will make use of the units they have and still carry the day. We are the 1st Legion, and thus always fight in style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 · Hidden by Chaplain Lucifer, January 31, 2014 - off topic. Hidden by Chaplain Lucifer, January 31, 2014 - off topic. Used less than the Nephifail? Haha.... wow. It -does- look good on the battlefield.... My experiences have been nothing but negative but I was hoping I was missing something... anything that might tempt me to pull it out. But it just has so many negatives, it's amazing to think they playtested it at all. ;) Nephifail? Nefailim, surely? Link to comment
Master Sheol Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Why vindicator is better??? Well maybe because the cover Save of the LSV can be negated Too easily by a lot of units and you are Left with a big speeder that has 24" threat radius that expose it to massed dire from infantry that destroy it with ease... I used it twice and in both games My opponent was able to shoot it down in 1 turn... I like better to take 2 WW and rain Death from a hidden place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I was actually in the process of writing this discussion up as we speak! It was going to be a cross between my experiences with it, and what everyone else thinks. I'll just put a condensed version: The bottom line is that it's a poorly conceived unit that may have had potential but is too expensive and too weak for what it does, easily the "Mandrake" of our codex. Not to mention it can get hot and glance itself. The probability of that actually happening is 8%, the probability of getting hot and glancing is worse, ((1/6 x 5/6 x 5/6)x3) x .5) = 66%, but someone should check my math on that. Just about everything that it can shoot can shoot back and glance it, and any S5 weapon will obviously pen it. To me, it's essentially a one time unit. That said, if you do use one, you can go 2 routes, a PFG tech marine on a bike, or a darkshroud that's also sitting in front of it obscuring it. You can always of course let it sit in cover and hope for the best. The problem with the first option is that you're spending more points on it that you may not necessarily want (PFG/Techmarine is a very highly specialized unit, if you aren't bringing lots of vehicles, an expensive endeavor to begin with, why bother?) When it comes time to use it, as I said I consider it one time use, use it to soften up a big blob or finish off a small squad. I generally keep it out of line of sight until absolutely necessary. I would also never give it an assault cannon, 160 points for that thing is absurdly overpriced (theme of the book?). I would also make it a huge candidate for prescience Librarians so you can re-roll gets hots and also the scatter. There are just so many better investments than this thing, but it can make for some great laughs. For instance one time my BA friend whiffed on his meltaguns (scattering D6 ugh!) and bolt pistols (after all they can technically glance it to death) and I turned around and dumped plasma on it. I would be able to stomach the cost if it came as an upgrade to the Support Squadron, at least then I can hide the damn thing with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Haven Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I still think they both have their place. Vindi's are horribly vulnerable to being flanked, and backfield WW's are killed by outflankers or DS units (every unit has a counter, this does not mean they are bad though). Besides Hive Guard and Markerlights what else straight up ignores cover, unless the enemy is lucky enough to have divination and roll perfect timing? Note, we are speaking about anti-tank weapons that ignore cover. If ignoring cover invalidates the Vengeance, would the Shroud not also be useless too? After all, why take a Cover save buff unit if cover saves are so easily negated? I am deeply interested in looking at the Heavy Support of our Codex and would like to hear your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 Dark Haven you make some very good points..... However, the Nephifail is something I have fielded many, many times to great disappointment. It feels over costed, and has no true role. It doesn't have the Av punch of a Storm Raven, and not near the Anti-infantry of a Hellturkey, but lacks the economy of a Fighta/Bomba. I gave up on the lascannon and turned it into a flying pillbox but I'd never put it in a competitive list. Some great points on the Vengeance though. Unfortunately it still does seem limited. I agree much of the codex is inter-dependent, but the Vengeance relies on a lot going right to have an effect, and I can't see fielding it without tremendous support. I play Ravenwing mostly and am always fielding the Shroud so it might be something I can give a real second glance at. I do love the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Well, I used it once. As a test because I had read all the net angst and etc. I just about gave my Wolfbrother a coronary because I flanked his rhino wall and got a full up shot into his Thunderwolves... Had all of them under the circle... Then I rolled for scatter.... It has the potential for greatness but you have to pick your moments and sometimes trust to luck... (but I have no luck...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I used a proxy once (hate the model) against a termie heavy BA/BT allied force. I DSed it in the back field and roasted five termies then died to return fire. Apart from being incredibly lucky with both my DS and shooting scatter (my Vindies always scatter worse) I was reasonably happy with that tactic. Made the most of a bad situation before I lost badly to killpoints. There are far too many 'situational' units in Vetocks training dex, I wonder if this new release and White Dwarf direction might see some patches, I doubt it but it would help sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 There are far too many 'situational' units in Vetocks training dex, I wonder if this new release and White Dwarf direction might see some patches, I doubt it but it would help sales. That's actually a really good point and I think something that's caused GW some pain overall in the sales department. It's another discussion for another time, but specifically talking about the LSV, it's lucky that it has the Darkshroud in the multikit, otherwise I think it would be an even worse seller (let's not forget that this is a custom cast and not just a regular landspeeder kit). The darkshroud may not see a lot of action in terminator heavy lists, but it can still do well in RW and RW/GW and even to some degree GW lists (turning all those 4+ ruins saves into 3+ is pretty amazing), so at least the kit has that going for it. It's so damn big it's hard to hide though (not impossible, but not easy.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retaliation Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The Vengeance is about 15 more points than I would like. I compare it to the Vindicator, which in most lists is taken for the psychological affect it has on people. No one cares if the opponent focuses fire on it, it's supposed to die. Both the Vindicator and Vengeance offer large blast ap2 good, one has armor BUT one has a good cover save that can be made better. So, why is one vilified and one praised? The lack of a hull point, ability to be injured by bolters (never taking a save is better than passing one!), and the significantly greater synergy with a PFG between AV13 and no inherent save vs AV10 and +5 jink. This is just looking at the platforms themselves, as the vindicator's gun is superior in almost every way imaginable. The increased strength and AP on the vindicator's blast are nothing to sneeze at, while Gets Hot! makes the potentially useful LSV 3 shot pretty meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 If any of you have made a Darkshroud, keep your Vengeance bits. you can easily convert any regular speeder into a Vengeance with the cannon bits. It may not be legal in tournaments because of its size, or whatever, but in my gaming circle, my friends allow this: http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a496/Odogg242/photo_zps48b26735.jpg http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a496/Odogg242/photo2_zps2a3a18c3.jpg http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a496/Odogg242/photo3_zps1df66f43.jpg I bought one Land Speeder Vengeance box, and made my Sableclaw, 2 of these Vengeance speeders and will make a Darkshroud too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Also, don't forget you can make it more potent by adding an Assault Cannon. Use the Heavy 3 mode and the assault cannon and you could inflict some serious damage to a unit or MC In regards to the Nephilim, to each their own. I love the models and I have 2, which I have never played but plan to really soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Magnets, Captain Sox. Magnets... http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/fred40k2002/The%20Ravenwing/DSC00741.jpg http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/fred40k2002/The%20Ravenwing/DSC00740.jpg But I can see that being a way to run both with one kit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 What will they do to fix it in the next codex? Av 12 and 3 HP? Increase range of the Gigantic Plasma Cannons to be more than a hand held rifle version of the same gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Fix gets hot and glancing hits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 140 pts for a vechicle that has so much plasma on it would be ok , but cconsidering you can field so many other things that will survive longer and both kill more then it does- it' just not good enough. One more thing here. Let's stop talking about every model in our codex with a Librarian on a bike near to it in mind. We started looking at all models from that perspective. Every model is better with a PFG behind it. It's not like they designed Wae Serpant with the rest of the codex in mind. The rest of the codex is a train, and Wave Serpant you more. But back to topic. 40k is a game you play in a store and have fun while doing it. It's based on skill , and luck . And it favours units that do one thing , and do it well. Most of the units in the game work that way . Then , we pick our units(from a competitive stand) by looking at what do unit does, what I have to do for it to work and what the cost of the unit is. That speeder cost tha same as 2 other "normal" speeders , kills less then they will and does it from half the range. We could argue that playskill could make it work. That same skill will make 2 Tyohoons work better. And that's why I'll never buy it, plus the model is funny, and not in a good way ++ Edited. Careful with the colourful language please. This is supposed to be family-friendly. I. ++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 What will they do to fix it in the next codex? Av 12 and 3 HP? Increase range of the Gigantic Plasma Cannons to be more than a hand held rifle version of the same gun? increased range would be nice. It's odd that the portable plasma cannon has a longer range than the plasma batteries on the vengeance. Also, AV11 front would go a long way to helping it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 What will they do to fix it in the next codex? Av 12 and 3 HP? Increase range of the Gigantic Plasma Cannons to be more than a hand held rifle version of the same gun? AV11 3HP Weapon profile: 24" S7 AP2 Heavy 1 Big explosion twin linked 24" S7 AP2 Assaut 4 twin linked That would be worth 140pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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