Assault TDA Sgt. - Thunderhammer/Storm Shield or 2 LC

[Quixus]

I'm wondering whether you prefer to equip the Sergeant of an Assault Terminator Squad with two Lightning Claws or a Thunderhammer and a Storm Shield. Is the 3++ and the ability to reliably hurt 2+ models worth the I1 and one less attack?

[knife&fork]

Yes, it's very good. But if you give just one model dual lighting claws and the rest SH+TH then give the sergeant some claws. 

 

4 S4-5 shred attacks on the charge can help to thin the numbers against anything not wearing 2+ armor. Most characters wearing 3+ armor will be very weary of a challenge against him. 

[Quixus]

So you are saying:

Sgt 2LC

Vet 1 2LC

Vet 2 TH+SS

Vet 3 TH+SS

Vet 4 TH+SS

 

I was thinking:

Sgt TH+SS

Vet 1 TH+SS

Vet 2 TH+SS

Vet 3 2LC

Vet 4 2LC

 

What's the advantage of the former over the latter?

[knife&fork]

So you are saying:

Sgt 2LC

Vet 1 2LC

Vet 2 TH+SS

Vet 3 TH+SS

Vet 4 TH+SS

 

 

Actually this is what I meant;

 

Sgt 2LC

Vet 1 TH+SS

Vet 2 TH+SS

Vet 3 TH+SS

Vet 4 TH+SS

 

Normally you'd go full TH+SS because they are good at smashing things our normal units have trouble with. But if you want some claws in there for the sake of variety then put them on the sarge as it can make him a bit more flexible in challenges. 

[Xenith]

I would have said put the TH/SS on the serge - he is more likely to be involved against a character/MC so can really hold them up, or even stand a chance of killing them with the S8 - to get through the 2+3++, the opposing character will generally either have an unwieldy weapon, or be a named character.

 

In 5th, I'd have said put the LC on the serge, but with challenges, you want him to be killier.

 

I'd go with:

 

Serge, TH/SS

2X THSS

2x claws

 

for an all round unit, giving you 6 TH attacks and 6 LC attacks, not on the charge.

[Quixus]

My thinking exactly.

[Quozzo]

A thunder hammer on the sarge means that he will be attacking last and in challenges only one wound needs to get past his save. Wereas a lightning claw maximizes his attacks at initiative, with rerolls, to ensure the opponent doesnt have the opportunity to strike back.

 

Any competent player would follow the same suit. How would you like your sergeant armed with a TH/SS facing another armed with dual LC? I Know what the math hammer says.

[The Milkman Of Baal]

Yeah but most of the time with our I we strike last or at the same time anyway...

[knife&fork]

There's no prefect solution. 

 

As I said I think all TH+SS is best. Giving the sarge the claws give you the option to have something quite dangerous strike at initiative. If you think that it's a bad match up just have him sit out this round. You'll still have plenty of Invul saves and high S attacks even without the sarge. 

 

It's not like you need him to protect a squishy unit of normal marines. 

 

The extra attacks can also make you slightly less vulnerable to get bogged down in a sacrificial unit. 

[JamesI]

Thunder hammer + Stormshield for the simple reason of the awesomeness that is the Sergeant from Space Hulk.

[Quozzo]

You may chose to have your terminators specifically hunt Vehicles or MC or what ever, so the TH/SS combo be more advantageous, but if he does get tied up in CC with infantry be prepared to lose him in a challenge.

[Xenith]

A thunder hammer on the sarge means that he will be attacking last and in challenges only one wound needs to get past his save. Wereas a lightning claw maximizes his attacks at initiative, with rerolls, to ensure the opponent doesnt have the opportunity to strike back.

 

Any competent player would follow the same suit. How would you like your sergeant armed with a TH/SS facing another armed with dual LC? I Know what the math hammer says.

 

I really don't think you do, as you appear to be coming down on the side of the LC serge, posting only the negative about the hammer, and only the positives about the claws.

 

Also it's unwise to call people that use THSS incompetent... you may look silly.

 

Lets to the Math for the scenario you suggest, THSS vs TLC serge:

 

THSS: 1/2 hit x 5/6 wound x 2/3 failed saves = 10/36 chance of a single attack to kill, 2A = 20/36 chance of killing.

 

TLC: 1/2 to hit x 3/4 wound (1/2+ (1/2x1/2) for the reroll) x 1/6 failed saves = 3/48 chance to kill with a single attack: 3A = 9/48 chance to kill.

 

So: ~27/48 for the TH (over 50% chance), 9/48 for the claws (less that 20% chance).

 

Over 50% of the time, the TH/SS serge wins in the first round of combat.

 

Charging also is better for the TH/SS serge, as you gain an extra 50% attacks, as opposed to TLC where the bonus nets you an extra 33% attacks, which takes the TH/SS up to 30/36 chance of killing, and the TLC up to 12/48 chance.

 

In a challenge, if someone will mince your TH/SS serge, you still want to be in a challenge, as they will either inflict a few wounds on the serge, or butcher the entire squad.

[Bartali]

Thunder hammer + Stormshield for the simple reason of the awesomeness that is the Sergeant from Space Hulk.

 

Is more or less the right answer.

 

Go with one you like the most/looks the best. There's situations where TH/SS is better on a Sarge, situations where TLC are better. Neither has a significant advantage over the other 

[knife&fork]

In a challenge, if someone will mince your TH/SS serge, you still want to be in a challenge, as they will either inflict a few wounds on the serge, or butcher the entire squad.

 

We are making an awful lot of assumptions here. A challenge can happen for many reasons, for example the opponent might just as well be trying to limit the damage you are doing. And against a huge number of different characters. Everything from a tau squad leader to a kitted out eldar character or monstrous creature. 

 

Considering how Xeno-heavy the meta is right now the old concern of marine characters with or without unwieldy weapons shouldn't dictate how you kit your sergeants. 

 

Let's say you face a daemon prince with the black mace, in that case  you want to decline the challenge for obvious reasons.  

[Xenith]

Let's say you face a daemon prince with the black mace, in that case  you want to decline the challenge for obvious reasons.

Exactly, but when declining a challenge, your loadout is irrelevant as you don't get to attack.

 

 

The mace prince is also a poor example as his I is so high. You'd always go with the hammer and shield there.

 

My stance is that the serge is always best with a hammer and shield to give you the flexibility to do what you want in challenges. The S8 means that people have to think twice before rushing in and assuming they will be safe in a challenge.

[knife&fork]

But TH+SS terminators have so many high S attacks (and such good invul) that you are never safe even outside the challenge. Even with the TH+SS on the charge the challenge will be the safer place to be for any elite or middle of the road model.

[Xenith]

I'm not getting your point, I'm arguing that TH/SS option was superior for the serge in all respects, you started out by countering it, then agreeing?

Or have we moved on to whether or not to accept challenges?

My stance is that whether in, out, accepting or refusing a challenge against anyone or anything, it is best (from a pure gameplay perspective) to have TH/SS on your sergeant, simply because the challenge rule exists.

[Quozzo]

Xenith, on 06 Feb 2014 - 10:57, said:

 

 

Quozzo, on 03 Feb 2014 - 09:06, said:

A thunder hammer on the sarge means that he will be attacking last and in challenges only one wound needs to get past his save. Wereas a lightning claw maximizes his attacks at initiative, with rerolls, to ensure the opponent doesnt have the opportunity to strike back.

 

Any competent player would follow the same suit. How would you like your sergeant armed with a TH/SS facing another armed with dual LC? I Know what the math hammer says.

I really don't think you do, as you appear to be coming down on the side of the LC serge, posting only the negative about the hammer, and only the positives about the claws.

 

Also it's unwise to call people that use THSS incompetent... you may look silly.

 

Lets to the Math for the scenario you suggest, THSS vs TLC serge:

 

THSS: 1/2 hit x 5/6 wound x 2/3 failed saves = 10/36 chance of a single attack to kill, 2A = 20/36 chance of killing.

 

TLC: 1/2 to hit x 3/4 wound (1/2+ (1/2x1/2) for the reroll) x 1/6 failed saves = 3/48 chance to kill with a single attack: 3A = 9/48 chance to kill.

 

So: ~27/48 for the TH (over 50% chance), 9/48 for the claws (less that 20% chance).

 

Over 50% of the time, the TH/SS serge wins in the first round of combat.

 

Charging also is better for the TH/SS serge, as you gain an extra 50% attacks, as opposed to TLC where the bonus nets you an extra 33% attacks, which takes the TH/SS up to 30/36 chance of killing, and the TLC up to 12/48 chance.

 

In a challenge, if someone will mince your TH/SS serge, you still want to be in a challenge, as they will either inflict a few wounds on the serge, or butcher the entire squad.

 

I never called anyone incompetent, don't be insulted because someone disagrees with you. Also your math-hammer is woefully wrong, would 4 TH attacks be 40/36? You're also missing the main advantage of LC into your TH calculations.

[JamesI]

Quozzo, I don't see anything wrong with his lightning claw calculation.  He took Shred into account with the 3/4 chance to wound.  Claws don't ignore terminator armor, so in this situation, the claw sergeant is at a disadvantage. 

[Quozzo]

You're missing the obvious too, it's so obvious it gets over looked. The LC strikes first so the probability of the LC inflicting a single wound on the TH needs to be subtracted into the chances of the TH being able to strike back.

[JamesI]

Of course the Lightning Claw goes first.  But its very unlikely to kill a Terminator (less than 20%). 

 

The lightning claw sergeant has an 18% chance of killing the hammer sergeant.

 

The hammer sergeant has a 55% chance.  Taking into account the chance the claw sergeant kills first, the hammer sergeant is still basically double the chance to kill the claw sergeant.

[Quozzo]

In my head the TH has a ~47% to inflict an unsaved wound and the LC has ~31% to inflict and unsaved wound. So ~69% of the ~47% percent is ~32%, so the TH would come on top. Admittedly I forgot the TH comes equipped with a SS as i usually play GK and we don't have that luxury >.<

 

Infact I would deem that probability too close to call and would need to actually work it out, tomorrow.

[JamesI]

You are forgetting that the lightning claw doesn't ignore terminator armor.  2+ saves against that lightning claw. 

[knife&fork]

 

My stance is that whether in, out, accepting or refusing a challenge against anyone or anything, it is best (from a pure gameplay perspective) to have TH/SS on your sergeant, simply because the challenge rule exists.

 

That's the part I really don't agree with.

 

We could make a long list of the different challenge scenarios we can run into, but I maintain that if you take one model with claws, it should be the sergeant. He's not needed to protect the squad (like a tac or assault sergeant) and it will add some utility to the squad that you might not otherwise have.  Power axes and force axes are popular picks that I see a lot. 

[Xenith]

K&F: Fair enough, I don't get why giving the serge claws gives a greater advantage over giving another model claws. I'll give you that the "anyone or anything" is far too sweeping. If you are against bog standard grunts, then the LC's are more effective, but as soon as an MC, multi wound model or 2+ save crops up, the hammer becomes the better option. This is echoed in your sentiment about the power/force axes - unwieldy AP2 for utility.

My argued build wasnt all TH/SS, I suggested Serge with THSS, 2 more with the same, then 2 claws as my preferred all round build.

I never called anyone incompetent, don't be insulted because someone disagrees with you.

Just repeating what you said:

[reasons why your favourite option is the bestest] Any competent player would follow the same suit.

Also your math-hammer is woefully wrong, would 4 TH attacks be 40/36? You're also missing the main advantage of LC into your TH calculations.

Yes, 4TH attacks would be 40/36, meaning, statistically/on average the TH/SS would kill the LC sergeant nearly every single time.The math may be iffy, but is not woefully wrong. You must be leaving something out. I also did specifically mention that I included the lightening claw reroll in my working, so maybe go back and double check?

You're missing the obvious too, it's so obvious it gets over looked. The LC strikes first so the probability of the LC inflicting a single wound on the TH needs to be subtracted into the chances of the TH being able to strike back.

Ok, I didnt bother to do that, because if the LC gets a wound in, the TH doesnt get to strike back at all. It seemed pointless: bodged stats inbound:

LC Kill = 20% = 2/10

TH kill = 50% = 5/10

Chance that TH serge survives TLC serge then kills him right back is equal to:

Chance that the TH gets to strike = (8/10) multiplied by chance attack will kill (5/10) = 40/100 = 4/10

4/10 is still twice as good as the 2/10 chance the claws have.

Aaanyways, that's more than enough out of me on this one :)