Indepedent Characters and Infiltrate

[GreyCrow]

Hey guys !

 

Just a quick question, we had a debate about that in the Raven Guard subforum, and I wanted to get a broader insight from you.

 

Basically, imagine an Independent Character with the Infiltrate special rule. Can he join a unit of non-Infiltrators and thus confer his rule to them ?

 

The wording is very ambiguous in the BRB. Before the game, they say an Independent Character joins the unit being deployed in coherency with them. But Infiltrate says that units with the rule are deployed last and after all other units have been deployed.

The question is then : when do the IC join the unit before deployment ? And can he confer the Infiltrate rule to non Infiltrators ?

 

There is an exception for Captain shrike that says that he may join units of Jump Marines before deployment. But my question was more geared towards other IC, such as Cypher that can be used with space marines.

 

Thanks for the help !

[Raeven]

Yes.  The only stipulation in the rule is that an IC without infiltrate cannot join a unit with infiltrate during deployment.

 

Don't get too hung up on the wording of how IC's join units during deployment.  If someone really insists on arguing with you about it, put the entire unit in a dedicate transport and put them on the board via infiltrate that way.  Entirely covered by the rules without mincing words.

[Stercus]

So if I get this right, a character with infiltrate can bring a squad with him, but a squad with infiltrate cant bring a character along who doesn't know how to do it.

Basically, a smart leader can keep his boys in line, but a squad of clever grunts can't keep a clumsy, flatfooted (or drunk ) officer quiet.

Unless they can stuff him in a taxi.

 

Edit: forgot to add the taxi bit, and it improves the analogy so much...

[Gentlemanloser]

No, you cannot do this by RAW.

 

There's been a recent thread on this here.

 

You cannot deploy an IC *on board* using thier Inflitrate special rule, with a Squad that doesn't have it.

 

As the squad *must* have already been deployed.

 

If you think there's no issue with timing, imagine the situation where you are deploying first.

 

Your opponent must deploy thier army *before* you get the chance to deploy any inflitrators.  By which time your Squad without Infiltrate must have already been deployed.

 

That's easy to see black and white RAW.

 

You can of course 'deploy' the IC with a squad using Infiltrate (rather the outflank granted by Infiltrate), if both are put into reserves, and not deployed with the rest of your army.

 

The earlier thread;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/284941-infiltrating/

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the thread ! It does seem to be a pretty hot debate, and I see where the RAW could go against the RAI...

The point about dedicated transport from Raeven is pretty strong though. The other thread seems to point at it as well and page 78 of the BRB also states that it is a way for IC to join squads prior to deployment (since they can't be deployed in coherency on the table since they are IN the transport...)

I beleive page 78 infers that you can attach a character to the unit prior to deployment. Page 121 regarding deployment also infers that imho. At least, both these pages specifically mention that IC can join squads in dedicated transports before they are deployed, hence confering the Infiltrate rule to them.

To be honest, I don't mind paying the xxpts cab fare to get Cypher to Infiltrate a sternguard squad, haha ! Thanks for the insigts guys !

[Raeven]

No, you cannot do this by RAW.

 

There's been a recent thread on this here.

 

You cannot deploy an IC *on board* using thier Inflitrate special rule, with a Squad that doesn't have it.

 

As the squad *must* have already been deployed.

 

If you think there's no issue with timing, imagine the situation where you are deploying first.

 

Your opponent must deploy thier army *before* you get the chance to deploy any inflitrators.  By which time your Squad without Infiltrate must have already been deployed.

 

That's easy to see black and white RAW.

 

You can of course 'deploy' the IC with a squad using Infiltrate (rather the outflank granted by Infiltrate), if both are put into reserves, and not deployed with the rest of your army.

 

The earlier thread;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/284941-infiltrating/

 

pg. 39 - "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it, or..."

 

Already with a unit.  The rules then outline the only stipulation, that he must remain in coherency with the unit on deployment.  You cannot treat him as attached to a unit then place him more than 2" away from that unit during deployment.

[GreyCrow]

pg. 39 - "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it, or..."

 

Already with a unit.  The rules then outline the only stipulation, that he must remain in coherency with the unit on deployment.  You cannot treat him as attached to a unit then place him more than 2" away from that unit during deployment.

 

I agree that is the rule as intended here. The problem lies in the wording of that and the Infiltrate deployment sequence, where when you choose to use it, they must deploy last. Because you can't maintain coherency with a non Infiltrating unit that way, you are forced to deploy him alone.

 

It's the sentence "by being deployed" that creates all the fuss. Is it considered as a passive state (he is deployed with them) ? Is it the action of deploying him in coherency ?

 

Until we get a FAQ, I'll be more than happy to pay the Rhino cab fare. The dedicated transport both keeps the fluff of the rule and will prevent any rule lawyer from arguing against that ! :p

[Fibonacci]

pg. 39 - "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it, or..."

So tell me, which of those two stipulations that follow your highlighting are you using to begin the game with a unit of Infiltrators?

You only have 2 option.

1 - Deploy within 2"

2 - Join the unit in reserves.

If you do not use one of those options then the IC cannot begin the game already with a unit.

 

This is one of those situation where everyone knows how it should work and most people play it that way -- at least around here -- but we also agree that by RAW the chance to join has past before any Infiltrators are placed on the table.

[Raeven]

I thought so too until I noticed that it says the independent character is already with the unit. Essentially, that line is your permission to start the character attached to a unit. Already is past tense. Means your character is ALREADY joined with the squad, conferring the infiltrate rule, allowing you to hold back both until the infiltrators are deployed.

 

The rule states only that he has to be deployed in unit coherency with the unit. Not that the IC has to be moved into unit coherency to join the unit. Slightly different wording and important semantics. Just like in the reserve rules. If you state the IC is joined to a unit in reserves, he cannot leave that unit when you roll for reserves and cannot separate from that unit until a turn after both have been deployed together.

 

My take on it anyway. Like I said, all else fails, put them in a dedicated transport.

[Fibonacci]

I thought so too until I noticed that it says the independent character is already with the unit.

Already with a unit?

Sure, if one of the two conditions are met.  Since neither can be met he could not have joined the unit in the past.

[Raeven]

Yes. Where exactly does it say that? Or are you just inferring it?

[Fibonacci]

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined."

 

One complete sentence taken as a whole.  There is nothing to infer since the conditions are stipulated with the rule.

[Gentlemanloser]

Also, please use the turn by turn example of deployment.

How do you explain the RAW if you start first?

You *cannot* deploy the IC until after your opponent (Transports aside, I've never touched that area! ). By which time the non Infiltrate Squad has to already have been deployed.

Until you can explain that, there is no way, by RAW for an IC to pass Infiltrate onto another squad.

There is a timing when using Infiltrate, it's stipulated in the USR itself.

This is one of those situation where everyone knows how it should work
and most people play it that way -- at least around here -- but we also
agree that by RAW the chance to join has past before any Infiltrators
are placed on the table.

I would hate to face Infiltrated Grav Centurion. lol!

[Raeven]

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined."

 

One complete sentence taken as a whole.  There is nothing to infer since the conditions are stipulated with the rule.

If it meant what you are arguing it means, then why is there the clarification that an independent character without infiltrate is unable to join a unit that has infiltrate??

 

Taken together, it shows that all the IC rule for joining a unit at deployment means is that they start within coherency.

 

Again I point out that the wording says, "start the game ALREADY with a unit". You are already with the unit. This is before deployment. It doesn't just say, can start the game with a unit as long as both can be deployed in unit coherency. That is what you are inferring in the sentence.

[Fibonacci]

read the part after "by" to see you do that.

You yourself said "Taken together."

I believe that shows my point well enough.

it meant what you are arguing it means

Thanks for admitting that.


In other words, thanks for proving my point about only using parts of a sentence.

[Raeven]

Either way, you cannot argue that it isn't possible to be done with a dedicated transport.

it meant what you are arguing it means

Thanks for admitting that.


In other words, thanks for proving my point about only using parts of a sentence.

You are ignoring the first part of the rule in favor of a specific reading of the last.

"Already - al·ready adverb \ȯl-ˈre-dē, ˈȯl-ˌ\
: before this time : before now : before that time"

[Gentlemanloser]

The meaning of "begin  he game already joined" only means that they don't need to move into coherency in thier first movement phase.  For exmaple, if they went second, the IC would be a part of the unit if the Enemy shot/charged/effected it.

 

In no way does this give you permission to break the rules of deployment or the Infiltrate USR...

 

You're reading *far* too much into it.

[Morollan]

 

Either way, you cannot argue that it isn't possible to be done with a dedicated transport.

 

it meant what you are arguing it means

Thanks for admitting that.

 

 

In other words, thanks for proving my point about only using parts of a sentence.

 

You are ignoring the first part of the rule in favor of a specific reading of the last.

 

No, he's reading the whole sentence, rather than just picking out the words that match what he wants. I happen to agree that the rules are probably not doing what was intended but your interpretation of that sentence is absolutely bizarre and really isn't helpful in debating the issue.

[Raeven]

The meaning of "begin  he game already joined" only means that they don't need to move into coherency in thier first movement phase.  For exmaple, if they went second, the IC would be a part of the unit if the Enemy shot/charged/effected it.

 

In no way does this give you permission to break the rules of deployment or the Infiltrate USR...

 

You're reading *far* too much into it.

 

 

No, that's precisely what I am not doing.

 

Look, by the interpretation you guys are laying out (which may not be wrong, it is very vague and able to be misinterpreted), the IC is doing exactly what you are telling me he isn't doing.  By your interpretation, he IS moving into unit coherency with another unit, thus joining that unit during deployment, not before.  Any IC that moves within 2" of a legally joinable unit is automatically joined with that unit.

 

The rule says it differently.  It says he begins the game ALREADY with the unit.  How can he be ALREADY joined to a unit if you have to move him within unit coherency during your deployment phase?  It's not possible if you follow the deployment layout you guys have set up.  To be already with the unit, all he and the unit have to be is deployed in unit coherency.  If he is already with the unit before deployment, then all rules and conditions transfer between unit and IC as they should, making it entirely legal to deploy a unit without Infiltrate with an IC with infiltrate.

 

But I'm repeating myself.  You guys are telling me I am cherry picking parts of the sentence and I say you are doing the same thing.  And I'm not picking out words that match what I want.  I can care less and will play the game using either interpretation.  It doesn't really benefit me at all to interpret it this way.  There are far more combinations that can use this against me than I can use against other people.  You still can't argue that an IC isn't joined to a unit before deployment if they are both in the same transport.  

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Look, by the interpretation you guys are laying out (which may not be wrong, it is very vague and able to be misinterpreted), the IC is doing exactly what you are telling me he isn't doing. By your interpretation, he IS moving into unit coherency with another unit, thus joining that unit during deployment, not before. Any IC that moves within 2" of a legally joinable unit is automatically joined with that unit.

 

Doesn't have to be before deployment.  But before the first turn.  Unless you want to get into sematics of when the game 'begins'...

 

 

The rule says it differently. It says he begins the game ALREADY with the unit. How can he be ALREADY joined to a unit if you have to move him within unit coherency during your deployment phase? It's not possible if you follow the deployment layout you guys have set up. To be already with the unit, all he and the unit have to be is deployed in unit coherency. If he is already with the unit before deployment, then all rules and conditions transfer between unit and IC as they should, making it entirely legal to deploy a unit without Infiltrate with an IC with infiltrate.

 

I don't get this...

 

I agree deploying in coherency is enough.  You don't have to 'move' in the Deployment phase.

 

But you cannot opt to deploy a squad without Infiltrate until after your opponent has dpeloyed.

 

You just can't.

 

 

 

But I'm repeating myself. You guys are telling me I am cherry picking parts of the sentence and I say you are doing the same thing. And I'm not picking out words that match what I want. I can care less and will play the game using either interpretation. It doesn't really benefit me at all to interpret it this way. There are far more combinations that can use this against me than I can use against other people. You still can't argue that an IC isn't joined to a unit before deployment if they are both in the same transport.

 

As said, I've never touched the Transport rules.  I don't frankly care too.  The rules are too much of a mess and contradict themselves in numerous places.

 

But.  Until you can show *how* you can keep a unit without the Infiltrate special rule undeployed (and not in reserves) until after your opponent has dpeloyed, there isn't a single arguement valid enough to try to allow IC's to pass on Infiltrate to other units.

 

(Outside of reserves and possibly transports...)

 

How do you keep a squad without Infiltrate undeployed until after your opponent has deployed?

[Raeven]

You either accept that a IC can join a unit before deployment or he can't.  I say they can and the rules support it.  You've obviously settled on can't. 

 

You want further evidence?  Take Shrikes special rule, "See, But Remain Unseen - Shrike as the Stealth and Infiltrate special rules.  Before deploying, he may only join squads of Jump Infantry."

 

According to you guys, IC's can't really join a squad until deployment actually happens.  So how can no IC join a squad until the deployment phase happens and Shrike's special rule has a simple statement that goes completely against your interpretation of the rules?   So explain why Shrike's special rule isn't worded differently to support your supposition?  

 

If you were correct, shouldn't it be worded, "Can join a squad before deploying, but only squads of Jump Infantry."?!?

[Gentlemanloser]

Shrikes rule is a different kettle of fish.

 

It's a unique, character driven, special rule.  And really has no place in the discussion of the generic Infiltrate USR.

 

 

You either accept that a IC can join a
unit before deployment or he can't.  I say they can and the rules
support it.  You've obviously settled on can't.

 

Before deployment?

 

The only thing before deployment is setting up the Board.

 

You can't do *anything* with your army then.

 

The first chance you get to do anything with your army is 'Deployment'.

 

So no, it's never possible for an IC to join a unit prior to Deployment.

 

Edit: Apart from badly worded unique rules like Shrikes...

 

Edit2: Also, to stop the 'before the game' argument descending into semantics, the 'game' is the turns you play, as evident by the 'Game Length' and 'Game Turn' references in the BRB.

 

Edit3: After rereading the rules, Dedicated Transports also do not allow this.

 

A IC that has *joined the unit* can be deployed embarked.

 

If an IC is using their Infiltrate special rule to deploy, they are once again, deployed *after* everyone else, so are unable to be deployed with the unit embarked on a Transport.

 

DT's are not a get out clause for the timing of infiltrate.

[Fibonacci]

Never mind.  I'm not changing anyone's mind so why bother.

[Kristoff]

Raeven, on 03 Feb 2014 - 10:44, said:

You either accept that a IC can join a unit before deployment or he can't. I say they can and the rules support it. You've obviously settled on can't.

The rules are not present that allows, presents, or implies an IC may join a unit before the Deployment Phase. The game begins after the attempt to Sieze the Initiative, which is after the Deployment Phase.

Raeven, on 03 Feb 2014 - 10:44, said:

You want further evidence? Take Shrikes special rule, "See, But Remain Unseen - Shrike as the Stealth and Infiltrate special rules. Before deploying, he may only join squads of Jump Infantry."

Deploying and deployment are not the same thing. If Shrike is in Reserves, he is not deployed. Nothing in that rule states that he's allowed to join a unit before the Deployment Phase. Therefore, Shrike can Outflank or Deep Strike only with some Jump Vanguard or Assault Marines (or Vespid or appropriate Angel/Wolf units) or by himself.

Raeven, on 03 Feb 2014 - 10:44, said:

According to you guys, IC's can't really join a squad until deployment actually happens. So how can no IC join a squad until the deployment phase happens and Shrike's special rule has a simple statement that goes completely against your interpretation of the rules? So explain why Shrike's special rule isn't worded differently to support your supposition?

Not quite. An IC cannot join an unit before the Deployment Phase. During which it is either deployed in to the unit or declared part of the unit in Reserves. As noted above, Shrike's rule gives no special benefits, only restrictions, in this area.

 

Going back to the Transport part, Independent Characters are considered joined to the unit when they Embark, not before. Independent Characters are just exempt from the "Only This Unit Who Bought It May Start Embarked" rule. So Cypher cannot be Deployed Embarked in a Vehicle until the Infiltrate section of the Deployment Phase or while in Reserves.

[Raeven]

Never mind.  I'm not changing anyone's mind so why bother.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing.  <shrugs>  I'm not calling anyone wrong.  I think both interpretations are completely valid.