Indepedent Characters and Infiltrate

[Gentlemanloser]

Not trying to belabor the topic, as I think it's not going to go anywhere and we've said all we can about the topic.  Plus the rules are a mess anyway.

 

But, I just want to make the point about RAI answers and the OR stance of including them.

 

First, the board rules enforce you to back up your claims with rules quotes, which isn't really applicable to RAI answers.

 

Secondly, we can all mostly agree on what we think the RAI should be.  It's the RAW we need to sort out.  It's unhelpful to new players to tell them "Yeah, just do it this way, it's how I think it should be played / how my group plays it", unless they are asking for homerules, or RAI suggestions (which should probably belong in a different forum).

 

If someone is asking how the rules actually work, then we should try to answer them, using the rules as they work.

 

As such, for this topic in hand, there is no rule to support an IC passing Infiltrate on to a Squad in any other occasion that both being placed into reserves.

 

Any other answer is not supported by the rules, and goes counter to established rules on the timing of deployment, and the organisation of a battle.

 

While we all might agree we would like, or think the rules should be different, it would be disingenuous of us to claim that's how the rules actually work.

 

And we should strive to provide clear rule analysis for those that come here for answers (or discussions).

 

Can an IC pass on Infiltrate to a squad without it?  No.  Unless they are both in reserves.  That's RAW.  Would we like it to be otherwise, or do we play otherwise?  Sure.  I'd love to Infiltrate a Squad of Grav Centurion.  And if that's what your group does, then more power to you if it brings you fun!

 

But ultimately the answer has to be NO as that's the only stance the rules support.

 

I hope this all makes sense! ;)

[Raeven]

That's all an good unless you disagree with the meaning of the rules wording themselves.  As we do in this case.  

 

I take issue with the idea you are pushing that I haven't supported my case.  You may not agree with it, but I have supported my case with plenty of rules quotes that fit exactly what I am arguing.  You, on the otherhand, used RAI to argue your point against me.  Both you and Kristof state that the game begins after seize the initiative.  This is entirely subjective and not supported anywhere in the rule book.  It isn't even inferred.

 

To borrow from another poster on this same issue, as it sums up my point entirely..

 

 

"an independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." that's the full sentence. Infiltrators are still 'deployed' just like other units only a little later.

"Being deployed in unit coherency" does not mean one unit must be deployed then deploy your independent character. they are deployed simultaneously and in unit coherency.

"while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..." 

Does the IC have infiltrate? yes.

Can the IC begin the game already with a unit? yes.

Does a unit gain the infiltrators rule if at least one model has this rule? yes.

Can the unit infiltrate? YES.

[Gentlemanloser]

Do I really need to C&P the Game Length and Game Turn mentions from the BRB?

 

Missions, Fighting a Battle, etc all mentioned for stuff you do prior to starting Game Turn 1.

 

Raeven, you have provided no rule backing to show how you delay the deployment of a squad without Infiltrate in order to deploy it after your opponent has deployed.

 

That is crucial.

 

 

Can the IC begin the game already with a unit? yes.

 

If you abide by the stipulations in the rest of the same sentence.

 

Which you're not...

 

You are ignoring the rules to try to make your case.

[Raeven]

I guess so.  Page numbers and paragraph is all you really need though.

 

As for the rest, Are you already with the unit?  Yes or no?

 

If YES, how can you ALREADY be with the unit if you are only a member of the unit AFTER you are deployed?

[Gentlemanloser]

Deployment is before the game begins.

 

Fighting a Battle, Page 118;

 

Quote

This information is broken down into the following categories: The Armies, The Mission, The Battlefield, Deployment, First Turn, Game Length, Victory Conditions and Mission Special Rules.

Game Length, Page 122;

 

Quote

, all of the Eternal \War missions use Variable Game length (right), but some of our other published missions,

or missions you create yourself, might define it differently. Most often this means setting it at a certain length (6 game turns, for example).

Quote

Variable Game Length

At the end of game turn 5

Victory Conditions, Page 122;

 

Quote

If one player concedes the battle, or his entire army is wiped out, the game ends and a crushing victory goes to his opponent.

likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins.

 

Crusade, Page 126;

 

Quote

GAME LENGTH

This mission uses Variable Game Length (see page 122).

These all tell us the a 'game' of 40k are the variable number of turns, usually from 1-7, that you actually play the game in.

 

Anything prior to this is set up or preparation. Including Deployment.

 

The rule in question, in full;

 

Quote

Joining and Leaving a Unit

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,

either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in

reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

The beginning of the game is the start of Turn 1.

 

An IC can begin the game already attached with the unit *if* deployed in unit coherency or held in reserves.

 

If so, when the game starts, when turn 1 starts, the IC is part of the unit without needing to move. Which might be poignant for times when you go second.

 

Edit;

 

Play the Game, Introduction.

 

Quote

With the board set, the players begin their game. A Warhammer 40,000 battle typically consists of several turns (,normally about six)

The sections before this were Setting up the Board and Army Deployment.

 

In two sections we are told that after Deployment ends (which is after Terrain), the Game begins at the first turn.

 

Edit2:

 

Playing the Game, Appendix;

 

PREPARING FOR BATTLE

Before you can play a game, you will need to prepare a few things:

This preparation ends with Deployment and Seize...

 

I hope this is enough.

[Raeven]

And yet no-where does it state a single time that the game begins on Turn 1.  You have lots of stuff that talks about when the game ENDS.  Not a single thing about when the game Begins.

 

You are inferring a rule that does not exist.  I am not.

 

"By being deployed in coherency with"

 

This can mean they deploy together, already joined before deployment started, or it can mean that they are not joined until you deploy your IC in coherency with that unit.

 

"Before deployment, Shrike can only join"

 

What part of deployment?  Reserve deployment?  It's not that specific.  You have to infer when he is being deployed to support this restriction.

 

"Units can be deployed in Transport vehicles if you wish - simply declare to your opponent which units are embarked where as part of your deployment."

 

Where is the restriction on what precise moment of time during deployment you must declare your units are embarked? 

[Kristoff]

And yet no-where does it state a single time that the game begins on Turn 1. You have lots of stuff that talks about when the game ENDS. Not a single thing about when the game Begins.

 

You are inferring a rule that does not exist. I am not.

First, can you provide a case where the game begins before the Deployment Phase and not the Movement Phase of Turn 1?

 

Keep in mind, there are a few more things that are performed before the game begins, and also happen during the Deployment Phase. For one, read the rules for Deep Strike.

 

"By being deployed in coherency with"

 

This can mean they deploy together, already joined before deployment started, or it can mean that they are not joined until you deploy your IC in coherency with that unit.

Deployed means being put on the board. Being "In Coherency With" is explained in the very next paragraph. An IC is "in coherency" by being within 2" of a unit or inside the same transport. The only exception to this is when an IC is within 2" of more than one unit.

 

"Before deployment, Shrike can only join"

 

What part of deployment? Reserve deployment? It's not that specific. You have to infer when he is being deployed to support this restriction.

Misquoting is a poor way to prove a point. Shrike's rule only talks about before he is deployed, not before deployment. The key difference is one is the act of putting a model on to the game field, the other is a specific phase of game setup.

 

"Units can be deployed in Transport vehicles if you wish - simply declare to your opponent which units are embarked where as part of your deployment."

 

Where is the restriction on what precise moment of time during deployment you must declare your units are embarked?

Standard Deployment rules are used as there are none else given. This part really isn't rocket surgery.

[Gentlemanloser]

Really?

 

"Before you can play a game", which ends with deployment and Seize.

 

Raeven, you're clutching now...

 

"With the board set, the players begin their game"

 

Which is right after the section before on, Deployment.

 

Exactly after Deployment, the game starts.  Deployment ends with a roll to Sieze.

 

The very next thing is the First GAME turn.

 

The start of the game...

 

If you accept the game ends on the last GAME turn of the game, then where would you logically say the game stated?  On the First GAME turn.

 

Which is directly after Deployment...

[Raeven]

 

And yet no-where does it state a single time that the game begins on Turn 1. You have lots of stuff that talks about when the game ENDS. Not a single thing about when the game Begins.

 

You are inferring a rule that does not exist. I am not.

First, can you provide a case where the game begins before the Deployment Phase and not the Movement Phase of Turn 1?

 

Keep in mind, there are a few more things that are performed before the game begins, and also happen during the Deployment Phase. For one, read the rules for Deep Strike.

 

>>"By being deployed in coherency with"

 

This can mean they deploy together, already joined before deployment started, or it can mean that they are not joined until you deploy your IC in coherency with that unit.

Deployed means being put on the board. Being "In Coherency With" is explained in the very next paragraph. An IC is "in coherency" by being within 2" of a unit or inside the same transport. The only exception to this is when an IC is within 2" of more than one unit.

 

"Before deployment, Shrike can only join"

 

What part of deployment? Reserve deployment? It's not that specific. You have to infer when he is being deployed to support this restriction.

Misquoting is a poor way to prove a point. Shrike's rule only talks about before he is deployed, not before deployment. The key difference is one is the act of putting a model on to the game field, the other is a specific phase of game setup.

 

"Units can be deployed in Transport vehicles if you wish - simply declare to your opponent which units are embarked where as part of your deployment."

 

Where is the restriction on what precise moment of time during deployment you must declare your units are embarked?

Standard Deployment rules are used as there are none else given. This part really isn't rocket surgery.

 

My games start when the first dice get rolled to determine mission. 

 

Sorry for the misquote of Shrikes rules.  I was paraphrasing.  I do realize it says deploying, not deployment.

 

The rest is redundant.  You don't accept my argument.  No big deal.  When a solid argument comes around that really settles this issue, I'll accept it.

 

Really?

 

"Before you can play a game", which ends with deployment and Seize.

 

Raeven, you're clutching now...

 

I'm not the one sniffing through the Intro of the book to justify my case.  You know, that little blurb section that comes BEFORE the rules?

[Kristoff]

My games start when the first dice get rolled to determine mission.

Okay, that's fine for you, but where do the actual rules state that?

 

And do you realize how much that changes some things, like only being able to Deep Strike Drop Pods and Mandrakes?

 

The rest is redundant. You don't accept my argument. No big deal. When a solid argument comes around that really settles this issue, I'll accept it.

I don't accept your argument because you haven't presented anything viable and rules-based. You have presented your home rules based on your desires and ignored the Rules As they are Written. So, I sincerely doubt that any solid argument will have any sway on you.

[Raeven]

 

My games start when the first dice get rolled to determine mission.

Okay, that's fine for you, but where do the actual rules state that?

 

And do you realize how much that changes some things, like only being able to Deep Strike Drop Pods and Mandrakes?

 

Where do the rules state that the game begins on turn one?

 

I'm going to remain more civil than you are being to me and simply ask what do you mean about what that changes? 

[Kristoff]

Where do the rules state that the game begins on turn one?

That has already been referenced in a huge comprehensive list above that you ignored completely.

 

You still need to prove your case that the game begins before Deployment. Without that, any assertion that an IC can join a unit before the Deployment Phase is not but a cow's opinion.

 

I'm going to remain more civil than you are being to me and simply ask what do you mean about what that changes?

You said "My games start", do you realize how uncivil and condescending that sounds?

 

Be that as it may: BRB, pg 36, Deep Strike, "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve. When placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike reserve)."

 

If we go by the interpretation that the game begins (or starts in this wording) before Deployment, then only models that MUST start in Reserves would qualify, since any other units that have it as an option can only do so during the Deployment Phase when they are finally declared to be in Reserve.

 

Since we know that's not really how the game is meant to be played, that means the game MUST start after the Deployment Phase, therefore, trying to use the phrase "An Independent Character may begin the game already in a unit" as "proof" of letting an IC join a unit before Deployment is excessively in error. And that's not even beginning to include the other evidence previously brought forth.

[Gentlemanloser]

Let's not misunderstand each other, get het up and see the thread locked.  I have no personal investment in this topic, and am really just posting so that the RAW can be highlighted.

 

 

I'm not the one sniffing through the Intro of the book to justify my case. You know, that little blurb section that comes BEFORE the rules?

 

Come on, I quoted the Rules first, then to support my position editted in both the Introduction *and* the Apendix, which also support the rules posted.  Yet you try to focus on just the Introduction as if it invalidates the entire point? 

 

Raeven, you still fail to address what rule allows you to withold deployment of a unit without Infiltrate, so it can be deployed last, with an IC that has infiltrate.

 

As per the deployment timing rules in the Infiltrate USR.

 

Everything else so far is obfuscation and selective reading.

[Grey Mage]

Everyone will be taking a couple of days to calm down, collect their arguments and reflect upon this matter. Ill reopen the thread sometime on thursday. In the mean time do not reference this thread or open new threads regarding this matter- your cooperation is appreciated, citizens.

[Grey Mage]

Open says me!

[Kristoff]

From a different forum where we're going through a similar discussion, he brought it around in a step by step method to help him understand my perspective:

I would like to add that I just had an "A-ha!" moment. I now see what you have been trying to explain, but I had to walk thru the steps in my head before I had the epiphany. For those still following this discussion, let me illuminate:

 

~ Scenario:

~~~ Two players are about to play a game of 40K. After the preliminaries, they have rolled off to determine who will deploy first. Player A will deploy first, and Player B will deploy second. Both players each have one unit with the Infiltrate USR.

 

++ Begin Deployment Phase ++

 

+++++ Begin Primary Deployment Sub-Phase +++++

 

==> Player A deploys all of his units except those that either he will keep in Reserve, or that have at least 1 model in them that has the Infiltrate USR.

==> Player B now deploys all of his units except those that either he will keep in Reserve, or that have at least 1 model in them that has the Infiltrate USR.

 

+++++ End Primary Deployment Sub-Phase +++++

 

+++++ Begin Infiltrate Sub-Phase +++++

 

==> The players roll off to determine who will place their Infiltrating unit first.

=======>> Player B wins the roll-off and chooses to deploy his Infiltrating unit first, and then does so.

=======>> Player A then deploys his Infiltrating unit.

 

+++++ End Infiltrate Sub-Phase +++++

 

++ End Deployment Phase ++

 

 

~ Result:

~~~ Cypher has the Infiltrate USR, but since the unit of CSMs that he will operate with (join) do not, either both Cypher and the unit of CSMs must be deployed in his player's Primary Deployment Sub-Phase of the Deployment Phase (before the Infiltrate Sub-Phase begins), OR Cypher and the unit of CSMs he is joining must be placed in Reserves after the Primary Deployment Sub-Phase ends and then arrive either via Outflank or from that players long board edge when they arrive from Reserves.

~~~~~~ In either case, Cypher and the unit of CSMs that he intends to join cannot be deployed together during the Infiltrate Sub-Phase because the CSMs do not have the Infiltrate USR and could therefore NOT be deployed during the Infiltrate Sub-Phase.

 

Correct?