To start or not to start Warhammer 40K now

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hi everyone. Not sure if this is the right forum to ask for such an advice but since Space Wolves are my favourite legion in fluff and rule of cool, I hope to find the answer from the perspective of wolf players.

 

Anyway, without telling too much of my life story, I'm a Malaysian and have been following Warhammer 40K ever since 2006 when Dawn of War came out. At first it was just the computer game, then it was the fluff in the codex and novels. Eventually I even began to start watching a lot of battle reports and am basically self teaching myself on the rules of Sixth Edition, as well as the general rules of how all of the armies work and play, from the cheesy Tau Empire to the newly designed Tyranids. Over the course of the last few years, everytime I went to Australia for holiday I always made it a point to buy one or two codexes to read for fluff as well as imagine myself on how to play. Thus far, I have Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and the latest one I bought, none other than the 6th Ed Space Marine codex itself.

 

Now I am finally considering starting the hobby myself, mostly for gameplay but also for the challenge and fun of actually painting my own miniatures. So how do I think I should start? The Dark Vengeance Set. Now before you start throwing the wolf dung at me, like I said, I have absolutely no supplies in 40K apart from said codexes. As I understand it, the Dark Vengeance set basically sets you off with the following:

 

1) lots of dice

2) Templates

3) The all important Basic Rule Book

4) A buttload of Dark Angel models which I can proxy as Grey Hunters (Tactical Squad), Swiftclaw (Ravenwing), Rune Priest (Librarian), Wolf Guard terminators (Deathwing), Wolf Lord (Space Marine Captain)

5) A buttload of chaos models to test my teeth in.

 

In addition, in the store I also saw a small painting pack, not sure what its called, but it comes with 5 basic dark angels tacticals, a brush, about six citadel colors and a manual on how to start painting.

 

Sadly in my search for Warhammer 40K products in Malaysia, Space Wolves products are hard to find though in one shop I did manage to find a SW battleforce.

 

However there are certain doubts and concerns I have about playing at this point. Not withstanding money concerns, I wonder if the timing to join the hobby is good at this point:

 

1) From what I read from Naftka's blog, is there another Space Wolves codex rumoured to be coming out in 2014? In the beginning I thought there was but his latest rumours now don't mention Space Wolves.

 

2) 7th Edition coming out in 2014? Internet rumours seem to think that it is more of a 6.5 Edition incorporating Forgeworld and Escalation rules. If so, would getting the current BRB in Dark Vengeance set be a waste of money?

 

3) If I truly want make or at least own/buy a Space Wolves army, should I also not buy Dark Vengeance? If so, what is the next best source for dice, templates and measurements?

 

4) If I really want to play Warhammer 40K, how big of an army should I try for in terms of points? 500? Or is even that too big for a noob like me and I should focus on even getting my first 5 models painted before I even think of playing?

 

5) Any other considerations that I might not have thought off.

 

Your thoughts and experiences are greatly appreciated. To add mot perspective from where i'm coming from, basically I'm a big kid in his thirties who now wants to nurture his inner nerd less it dies to the pressures of reality. I'm not the richest of people, but buying an army of 2000 points off ebay is not beyond my capabilities. However, I do envision having my own Wolf Lords and Grey Hunter packs one day.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Book 4 of the Horus Heresy series is expected for Games Day UK and will contain lists for Great Crusade-era Wolves, Thousand Sons, Custodes and Sisters of Silence. There are rumours that this is timed to coincide with a new 40k codex for the Wolves.

 

I wouldn't bother with Dark Vengeance, source a mini rule book off fleabay, a batch of normal gaming dice and a tape measure from a DIY shop.

 

Whatever happens, you can't go wrong starting off with a Wolf Lord and a couple of packs of Grey Hunters ;)

 

I seem to have accrued my own body weight in plastic wolves, pm your details and I send you a sprue or two to get you started.

[MaveriK]

You can never go wrong with getting your basics!

 

You'll always need dice. I prefer using chessex with their smaller sized dice (12mm). You'll always need a ruler. For close combat I use The Gale Force Nine TAC (Tactical Assault and Coherency) Template.

 

As for paints, they (GW) tend to get expensive, but there are other alternatives outside the GW line that you can use, that also goes with paintbrushes.

 

As for your wolves... You can never go wrong with Grey Hunters. They are your standard troop choice. If I were you, I'd play around with modeling them first. First testing out painting and paint schemes. From there you can slowly branch out onto Heavy Support to Elites and HQ etc etc.

 

Take it slow, go at your own pace. Don't buy everything at once and overwhelm yourself. Just take your time to enjoy every aspect of the hobby.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I would recommend not getting dark vengeance if you want to start space wolves. Yes the dice and templates and mini rule book are nice, but all are available on eBay for pretty cheap. As for models,I started with a space wolves battle force. It's got a couple Grey hunter packs and a scout pack as well as a drop pod. All fun things for wolves.

 

Another way to go (and though it is a bit more costly possibly a good jumping off point for your bits box) is to alternate buying 1 space wolves box and 1 tactical squad box for regular marines. if you mix the bits you can get some great looking Grey hunters, hqs, Wolf gguard in power armor etc.

 

Hope this is helpfull

[Kasper_Hawser]

Wait a minute, you mean the big BRB is not inside the Dark Vengeance Set? Its just a condensed version of it?

 

Now I know why I feel the box was so light. 

 

What about my other concerns? 

[Max_Dammit]

500 points is a good start but it doesn't give the same feeling as a 1500 point game, but still good to get to know the game.

 

ebay is your friend to get cheaper wolves if there hard to come by in your area, or even GW, the price of a brick store will be the same as the site.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Even if when a new edition does appear eventually, it will be based on the present system and changes have been incremental rather than radical since 3rd Edition :)

 

So I suggest you crack on, but I guess you didn't want my freebies.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hi Durfast. Sorry, it's Chinese New Year where I am so been celebrating quite a bit last few days. Will PM you soon.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Now how could a good wolf be upset at someone delaying their response due to celebrating :)

[DanPesci]

definately a +1 choice on ebay, probably not the cheapest mailing ever, but for picking up some cheap tactical marines (which with space wolves is where you want to start) its cant be beat.

In the last couple of days ive picked up 35 greyhunter/bloodclaw models (which can be mixed and matched to represent either really) for £10, sure, they may need stripping etc, but for the price, cant argue if theres a few knocks/scratches.

 

I would start by trying to collect the following.

 

1-2 squads of grey hunters

1 squad of long fangs

1 HQ (wolf lord or rune priest)

 

that will give you a basic 500-750pt army to start playtesting, whilst not being TOO much to model/paint at first. These units also should (touch wood) still be usable if/when our new codex comes out, as they are the bog-standard units we get (whereas more elite units etc may get more drastic rule changes)

 

Id also recommend looking at if there is any local kill team games happening. With this you only need 7-8 marine models, and it a good way to familiarise yourself with basic mechanics (move, shoot, assault etc)

[infyrana]

This is exactly what I did for my SW allie attachment.

 

1 Rune Priest

2x 10 man squads of GH (both with dual plasma in my case)

1x 6 man Long Fang squad (all missiles)

 

I just happened to add in a spare Dread I have, and I had to buy myself both the TWC and WG:TDA boxes due to the awesome models contained within.  Somehow both of these doubled and I'm with 11 termies and 7 TWC! :D

[Kasper_Hawser]

Thanks for the advice. Durfast has sent me some grey hunter spruces to try out. I will probably be buying a citadel starter painting set when his spruces arrive.

 

Still have to find a cheap way to buy the BRB, dice and templates. Also someone mentioned I can also start with something called Kill Teams which only need less than 10 models? Is that sort of game covered in the BRB?

 

I also found a w40k board game called Relic and Horus Hersy. Are they fun and can their models translate to the tabletop version?

[DanPesci]

nah kill team is a seperate 'supplement' i guess you'd call it - its been around for years, basically a way of playing small games in 30 min, but instead of moving as units, all you rguys are seperate.

 

give us two secs and ill find you some links 

 

note - you do also need to brb to play this, as its based on brb rules, its jsut quite a nice easy way to get started, rather than playing full scale battles

[DanPesci]

Here is one of the latest sets of kill team rules i could find (note - certain tournaments will have their own rulesets etc)

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3460063a_Kill_Team_Rules_Pack_2013.4.pdf

 

there are also a group called herald of ruin, who have their own ruleset, which i often steal parts of to make my own in-house ruleset when playing kill team. I particualrly like their rules for splitting fire between multiple targets if they are close enough, being able to 'hide', and the flamer rules (whereby you can set people on fire!)

 

http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.co.uk/p/kill-team-rules.html

[Kasper_Hawser]

Very interesting, definitely more easier to do then collect 500 points before first game. Guess it'll depend if my local scene plays it at all. If they don't, I hope they will for the sake of my induction.

 

Man, can't wait to see what Durfast has sent me.

 

I still wonder why Grey Hunters are considered so great even compared to the other equivalent Xeno or SM armies. Equipment wise, they don't have access to Heavy Weapons like all normal Space Marine armies (except Blood Angels), which is odd considering in the few stories I read, Blood of Asaheim and Kraken in particular, they always have one brother packing a Heavy Bolter. Melee wise, the only extra they have is the Mark of the Wulfen, which I will admit, gives a squad on the charge a lot of attacks if you roll well. Still, I don't see a Grey Hunter pack winning against a Blood Angels Assault Squad with furious charge, a bunch of Fearless gaunts within synapse or even a group of 20-30 veteran or normal guardsmen with a power weapon or 2. Tau Firewarriors of course, has ridiculous 30" range with Strength 5 guns with usual supporting fire shenanigans. Eldar Dire Avengers have the pseudo rending rule while Eldar guardians also have that ability with some relentless cannons, along with their outrageous Battle Focus. Not to mention usually higer initiative like their Dark Eldar brethren.

 

Counter attack, if I understand correctly, gives Grey Hunters an additional attack if pass leadership check while being charged by another unit. Still doesn't seem great especially when the melee monsters like Dark Eldar or other Elites and HQs tend to be Int 5.

 

Is it purely because of the Wolf Standard which is only once a game? At first I thought it was only for shooting and melee, but did I hear somewhere that it actually affects EVERY role of 1, whether its denying witch, cover same, armour save, morale checks, etc?

[DanPesci]

Grey hunters, at 15pts a model, come with a bolter, CCW, and bolt pistol. This means that they can use rapid firing in the shooting phase, and still benefit from having 2 close combat weapons in the assault phase. This gives them all 2 attacks base, or 3 when charging/using counter attack. This means that if being chargeby standard boltgun marines, they are generally getting MORE attacks per model than the unit charging them

What this makes them is a very effective mid field unit, as they can disembark, rapid fire something, then just stand there, and not be too bothered if something charges them.

Furthermore, you throw in a wolf standard at 10pts, which whilst only 1 use, allows you to reroll ALL 1's in an assault phase. So that includes:

- overwatch to hits

- overwatch to wound

- Rolling for your wulfen attacks

- CC to hit

- CC to wound

- armour saves

Using the banner at the right time makes a HUGE difference to combats. We also get to take a 2nd special weapon for free if at 10 men, which im not sure other marines get to do. Wulfen can also be awesome if you roll well. They can get up to 8 attacks a turn, and its rending, so can (if lucky) kill 2+, at initiative. Pretty much no other marine weapons (bar relic blades etc) can do this.

You are right in a way though, they arent as good assault troops as some things the blood angels ahve access to, they arent as shooty as some other armies troops...however what they are is a very good all round unit who can fill a variety of roles (anti tank? Take twin melta, anti heavy-infantry - twin plasma, anti horder - twin flamer)- until recently, one of the best in the game.

Dont worry about the lack of heavy weapons in a grey hunter squad either...its morethan made up for by the fact we get very cheap heavy weapons squads (long fangs) that can take 5 heavy weapons (no othe marine codex can do this as far as i know), who can also split fire. basically, we dont need heavy weapons in grey hunter squads...it makes them less mobile.

Edit - Note - However - space wolves are not as good as they were when they released the 5th edition codex. But that is more down to changes to overall rules, and power armour not being as effective as it was due to the abundance of AP3 weapons in tau/eldar etc codexes. Space wolves are still a good marine force, but as an overall competitive forece these days, we've taken a hit (although we are due a new codex soon....)

[securitas]

should i start with heresy models or 40k

[DanPesci]

id say thats more down to personal choice. However, heresy will cost you more as you need to buy from forgeworld (i think - i dont play heresy), and you'll probably find there are less people playing that than regular 40k. There is also a lot less heresy stuff on say ebay/bits sites.

[securitas]

thanks i might start it with excoriators

[Kasper_Hawser]

Well said about the Grey Hunters, confirms what I've been hearing all this while. I also recall CSM players complaining that they have to pay for the CCW and bolt pistol combination which Grey Hunters get for free and wondering why they do so. 

 

Ironically, the Grey Hunters may well epitomise what Space Marines are suppose to be as opposed to the Codex versions: versatile troops that can do everything but not really excel in either shooty or assault. Which would theoretically make them the best troop buck for buck.

 

Sad to say their strength is still in assault, which in 6th edition seems to have taken a big nerf stick. Shooting wise they are as strong as other marines but doesn't mean much compared to the ridiculous firepower of Tau and Eldar these days. Or even the Flying Monstrous Creatures that define powerful Tyranid and Daemon lists.

 

Hopefully Grey Hunters stay exactly the same in spite of any other change that might happen. 

 

I WANT MY SPRUES! HURRY UP MR. POSTMAN!

[Kasper_Hawser]

My first attempt at List Fu at 500 points. Just bear if you've seen it before, just trust me when I say I wrote this with codex in hand without refering to net lists.

 

First List Created in my life!

Rune Priest 115

- Plasma Pistol

 

Grey Hunter Pack (10) 160

Plasma Gun X 2

 

Grey Hunter Pack (10) 160

Plasma Gun X 2

 

Long Fang Pack (3) 65

Missile launcher X 2

 

Total 500

 

After designing this list though, I realised that despite utilizing our 3 best codex choices, RP, GH and LF, it was still a little cheesy and "spammy". Somehow it didn't strike me as fun, plus after packing 2 Grey Hunter packs, there wasn't enough room for even 3 missile launchers. Not sure what is the worse think I can face in a 500 points game, but I don't think 2 missiles are going to scare a daemon prince or Hive Tyrant. Plus there was really no room for Wolf Standard or Wulfen, two of the most deadly tools of Grey Hunters. Not to mention the total model count here is 23.

 

So I decided to play around a little and came up with this. Best part is, less models for me overall to collect!

 

Second List personally designed ever.

 

Rune Priest 125

Terminator Armour

Combi Plasma

 

Grey Hunter Pack (10) 170

Plasma Gun and Melta Gun

Wolf Standard

 

Long Fang Pack (6) 140

Missile Launcher X 5

 

Lone Wolf 65

Terminator Armour

Combi Plasma

Chainfist

 

Total model count 18. I'm actually liking this list a lot. Was watching Pacific Rim the other day and somehow the Jaegers fearlessly putting themselves in between the Kaiju and the rest of Hong Kong inspired me to add the Lone Wolf to my second list. Basically he can choose to either protect the Long Fangs or the Grey Hunter Pack with Rune Priest in it from any big monster that might eat up troops. Not sure how scary a Lone Wolf can be, but looking at this forum, a lot of people seem to think the tiny guys pack a wallop despite being only 2 wounds and just 1 WS higher than a grey hunter and Feel No Pain.

 

The Rune priest in both cases will pack the standard powers of living lightning and JAWS. If no big targets, then replace JAWS with Murderous Hurricane. Second list terminator equiped priest can also tank for the GH in a pinch.

 

My first attempt at list fu. Know I am getting ahead of myself but, penny for your thoughts?

[Hfran Morkai]

First things first, welcome to the Fang.

 

And secondly, please edit your lists with the points costs, forum rules dictate we are not to put individual points costs down as GW doesn't look too fondly on this (among other things such as complete statlines, it makes sense). Just put a total next to the unit and we're fine in the eyes of the mods.

 

Now to the lists. Generally a 40K army needs one HQ choice and two Troops choices to be considered a legal army. However I'd be more than happy at 500 points to allow a single Troops choice, as I'm sure others would. After all you need to be able to learn how different things act.

 

And finally I can comment on your actual lists.

 

The first list has a good number of bodies but you're right about the Long Fangs, two Missile Launchers just isn't really worth it. I would personally drop the Plasma Pistol on the Rune Priest (Its highly likely you'll pick a shooting power anyway, and don't want to risk frying him with a Gets Hot! roll). I'd probably keep one unit at ten men with two Plasma Guns and make the other one slightly fewer in number with a Meltagun and maybe a Power Weapon of some sort, these would be my assaulting unit and the ten man pack would be primarily to take and hold objectives as needed.

 

Second list I'd drop the Combi-Plasma on the Rune Priest. If your opponent is fine with you using a single troops choice that is great. I'm pretty sure you'd save 5 points on the unit too as I believe you could take the Meltagun as the paid for choice and unlock the Plasma Gun as a free choice (there is still debate about this believe it or not though). The spare ten points could be used for something fun (saga of the Beastslayer maybe? Not seen my codex in almost two years...)

 

Lone Wolves are cool, Terminator Armour and Chainfists make these a royal pain

[Kasper_Hawser]

Thanks Mikal. Noted on the forum rules on point costs and edited subsequently.

 

Reason I keep adding a plasma to my priests despite living lightning is mainly I feel every HQ should have an ability to soften up or kill monsters. As it is, priests are stuck ap3 even if u take a rune axe. Again not sure what is the worst MC I can meet in small game but just want insurance. But you are right about plasma pistol, unlikely I can threaten most big Hq with its short range. Combi plasma on the other hand is damn cheap once get termite armour.

 

Also noted on mandatory HQ and 2 troops. Completely forgot as I made up second list. I will revise later but now I m thinking fully tooled up GH with standard, special weapons, wulfen and power fist/weapon. Will calculate for myself later. Also noted that also depends on my local scene.

 

Oh yeah I bought for me self the citadel painting guide. Will be my light reading for now.

[Vykryl]

I'm new to this as well and still putting my force together. My first game was a 1500 point team game with points split between three team mates. I received some extra points that one of my team mates wasn't sure how to use. This is as close as I remember to what I ran and comes to 530 points.

 

Rune Priest 120 points

Runic Armor

Living Lightning

Jaws of the World Wolf

 

Lone Wolf 60points

TDA

Melta Bomb

Frost Blade

Stormbolter

 

Grey Hunter Pack of 10 160

Plasma Gun x 2

 

Grey Hunter Pack of 6 90points

Flamer

 

Long Fangs Pack 100points

Squad Leader - Flamer

Lascannon x 2

 

The Rune Priest was great and the Lone Wolf disabled a Hellbrute. My Long Fangs helped take down a Defiler (right name?). The Grey Hunters were wiped out. I spent most of the game taking on my cousins Chaos Marines and I think a Necron pyramid thing. I believe I learned more of what doesn't work from that game more than any thing. What doesn't work in walking infantry across the board when my cousin is fielding multiple walkers.

 

Playing with your two lists and thoughts, this may work. 500 points

 

Rune Priest 120points

Runic Armor

Choose your powers

 

Lone Wolf 85points (seems a forum favorite)

TDA

Chainfist

Stormshield

 

Grey Hunter Pack of 10 200points

Mark of the Wulfen

Wolf Standard

Power Axe (gets second attack with pistol where power fist is only one)

Plasma Gun x 2

 

Grey Hunter Pack of 6 95points

Melta Gun

[infyrana]

Don't forget that with Grey Hunters specifically, your marine with the power axe or the power fist, they always have a bolter and a bolt pistol as well as a CCW (or PA/PF when you change it).  So yes they will get an additional attack with the Axe and pistol combo, but you can still fire your boltgun at range as they are equipped with them anyway.  Other marines from other units and codex's do not get all three weapon options on their profile.

 

In the case of non-Grey Hunters, you would always give your power fist model a boltgun as you won't get the extra attack from a pistol as you have already said.  But, the boltgun is the better choice because of the number of longer ranged shots you can get over turns versus +1 attack in melee which you want to avoid with a shooting unit.

 

The two weapons have very different uses and prices to boot.  If you expect that you'll be in melee with the unit and against armour, the power fist is the better option, but expensive.

 

Lone Wolf is a nice unique SW design and very fluffy.  But consider the boys over toys mantrum.  Would it be better to have two full units of GH's with dual special weapons and/or power weapons for melee...  Trial and error for you:)