I'm curious to learn why people discard stuff as useless...

[Xaric]

Well I have been playing 40k for about 1 year now and when I browse the forums for information I see people class things as bad or downright useless with no example or reasoning to why it is "they suck". To me this is not a valid reason to not use things from the codex or BRB this is just out right ignorance so this is what I did research on.

Thousand sons with icon of flame.

People claim I should not take the icon of flame because the points is too expensive even the fact that thousand sons are shooting AP3 shots and likely to land a wound with a possibility of 3 additional wounds... So lets say for example you got 4 of your thousand sons models in say 8" range you shoot rapid fire that is 8 shots about 5 of them wound then you charge into combat because you can't overwatch so you know they are not going to live after that and with soulblaze manage to score 2 wounds. I feel that even if soul blaze killed 1 model it has made its points up so can someone tell me now why I should not get the icon of flame?

Tzeentch firestorm

I hear a lot of hate on this spell apparently its doom bolt or go home OK lets look at the range of both spells and the way they fire. Tzeentch firestorm is 24" wile doom bolt is 18" the thousand sons marines are 24" bolter shots. The doom bolt is a beam and the firestorm is a blast marker now beam can only ever hit 1 model in the unit I hope I got this right with beam and loose 1 strength for every unit it has to pass. Resulting in people just putting 2 layers of units in front of the tank loose too much strength and that spell can't even pen a tank. Now look at tzeentch firestorm possible strength 7 with inferno rule (for every wound roll d3 wounds) that means any model with T3 can be instant kill and deny FNP if a 6 or 7 is rolled. Now lets say you scatter and hit the unit behind the unit and kill 3 models inferno will kill d3x3 the unit behind because it said in the rules that the unit hit by the spell takes those wounds so there you have it a splitfire spell if it scatters.

The way people need to learn is doombolt is designed for blowing up building or AV units and tzeentch firestorm is made to kill units this is a game where tactic comes into play.

Thousand sons as a unit

My annoyance I see here is people say they can't kill tanks that means there useless so don't take them... This drives me insane when I hear this sort of stuff if a unit has ap3 bolters and the ability to make there foes take more wounds because they took a wound they are designed in mind to kill other units not tanks. If you feel this is a problem take a helbrute with a twin linked lascannon and missile launcher those weapons are designed to blow up tanks in 1 shot.

The helbrute vs other walkers

Helbrute I always take one over the other walkers do you want to know why? Because the others are huge and intimidating and more likely going to get focused I don't want my unit that is designed in mind to blow there heavy support up being focused... Also the cost is cheaper and the fact that it has a possibility when taking a wound to fire 2x every weapon anyone seen this beast fire 2x twin-linked lascannon and krakk missile's before lets just put it this way nothing was left of the last person who shot him.

Sorry about my gramma and spelling and also sorry this turned into a rant it just makes me think that people play chess thinking that because one of the back units died that its game over...

[Excessus]

Hello there, welcome to the forum!

 

Well, for starters, Thousand Sons aren't bad, they are overpriced! They cost almost as much as Plague Marines, but with far less survivability and flexibility than them! They have AP3 bolters, which are not really needed against any non-marine army out there. Against marines that are out of cover, sure they kill stuff, but against IG, or Orks, or Nids...they don't do much at all. They also die just as fast as regular marines to small-arms fire, which any sane opponent would throw their way. The Sorcerer can give the unit value with his Force Weapon in melee...if he doesn't kill himself first from a psychic test, or if they get stuck with a walker or wraith-construct in melee.

 

Thousand Sons with Icon of Flame

 

Ok, the icon costs 15 points, that's more than a regular marine with a bolter, and it will do on average one bolter hit extra per turn (with ap5 only). Sure it gives +1 to combat resolutions, but TS are fearless and are not going to run away, and you don't really want them in combats from the start anyway. If it helped DSing units like last codex, I would take it in a heartbeat, but currently, too many points on an already overcosted unit to justify it.

 

Tzeentch Firestorm

 

Firestorm is very situational. Against marines or other "elite" low modelcount armies it does almost nothing, hitting one model, maybe two if you are lucky. It's anti-horde at best, but even there it will rarely hit a lot of models (withing 12" it's better to just shoot your bolt pistol). Compared to Doombolt that can hit a lot of models if it gets in a good angle, and helps mitigate the TS weakness from their lack of AP2 and High S weaponry.

 

Thousand Sons as a unit

 

TS aren't made to kill tanks, even with doombolt (it's not really that good at killing tanks). They aren't good in melee either. What they are good at for their price is to shoot marines out of cover at range, that's their niche. Facing IG? Daemons? Eldar? Tau? Well, those AP3 bolters aren't such high value equipment anymore...

 

The Helbrute vs. other walkers

 

Sure it's cheaper than the other walkers, but also have worse rules. All our walkers have the same AV, but the "heavy" walkers have 5++ save, and IWND, and can dish out a whole lot more damage than a lone helbrute can. I don't think any of my opponent's focus their fire after how intimidating a model looks, but how intimidating the rules are to their army. Remember though, the Helbrute have just as high chance of not firing anything at all when it's damaged as it has firing double. Also, if you take a walker, you need to grab a few more vehicles to not make it an easy target, so there is that as well. If it was an MC, I would grab one all the time!

 

 

 

Now, I bring my TS to play every now and then, and with the proper support they can be a nice addition to an army, but you have to dish out quite a lot of points for them. I never take the icon, it's just not worth it imho, and I always equip my asp. sorcerers with Melta Bombs (for walkers/MCs) and Force Axes (as I have to take a force weapon and they have the survivability to actually get to use it with their 4++ save!).

Spawns, oblits and cultists are also usually in my lists, as are heldrakes and daemons! The tough nut to swallow though is that you are required to take one of the weaker HQ choices as your HQ to get TS as troops (and this is part of the "overcosted" bit), a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch.

 

Taking a Sorcerer with MoT is like downgrading your sorcerer one level, since both biomancy and telepathy have witchfire spells you'd rather use than a Tzeentch spell, and you will try to max out on those schools as much as you can.

[Hellios]

Compare the Aspiring Sorcerer to a Grey Knight. Then come back to me.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Hello there, welcome to the forum!

 

Well, for starters, Thousand Sons aren't bad, they are overpriced! They cost almost as much as Plague Marines, but with far less survivability and flexibility than them! They have AP3 bolters, which are not really needed against any non-marine army out there. Against marines that are out of cover, sure they kill stuff, but against IG, or Orks, or Nids...they don't do much at all. They also die just as fast as regular marines to small-arms fire, which any sane opponent would throw their way. The Sorcerer can give the unit value with his Force Weapon in melee...if he doesn't kill himself first from a psychic test, or if they get stuck with a walker or wraith-construct in melee.

 

Thousand Sons with Icon of Flame

 

Ok, the icon costs 15 points, that's more than a regular marine with a bolter, and it will do on average one bolter hit extra per turn (with ap5 only). Sure it gives +1 to combat resolutions, but TS are fearless and are not going to run away, and you don't really want them in combats from the start anyway. If it helped DSing units like last codex, I would take it in a heartbeat, but currently, too many points on an already overcosted unit to justify it.

 

Tzeentch Firestorm

 

Firestorm is very situational. Against marines or other "elite" low modelcount armies it does almost nothing, hitting one model, maybe two if you are lucky. It's anti-horde at best, but even there it will rarely hit a lot of models (withing 12" it's better to just shoot your bolt pistol). Compared to Doombolt that can hit a lot of models if it gets in a good angle, and helps mitigate the TS weakness from their lack of AP2 and High S weaponry.

 

Thousand Sons as a unit

 

TS aren't made to kill tanks, even with doombolt (it's not really that good at killing tanks). They aren't good in melee either. What they are good at for their price is to shoot marines out of cover at range, that's their niche. Facing IG? Daemons? Eldar? Tau? Well, those AP3 bolters aren't such high value equipment anymore...

 

The Helbrute vs. other walkers

 

Sure it's cheaper than the other walkers, but also have worse rules. All our walkers have the same AV, but the "heavy" walkers have 5++ save, and IWND, and can dish out a whole lot more damage than a lone helbrute can. I don't think any of my opponent's focus their fire after how intimidating a model looks, but how intimidating the rules are to their army. Remember though, the Helbrute have just as high chance of not firing anything at all when it's damaged as it has firing double. Also, if you take a walker, you need to grab a few more vehicles to not make it an easy target, so there is that as well. If it was an MC, I would grab one all the time!

 

 

 

Now, I bring my TS to play every now and then, and with the proper support they can be a nice addition to an army, but you have to dish out quite a lot of points for them. I never take the icon, it's just not worth it imho, and I always equip my asp. sorcerers with Melta Bombs (for walkers/MCs) and Force Axes (as I have to take a force weapon and they have the survivability to actually get to use it with their 4++ save!).

Spawns, oblits and cultists are also usually in my lists, as are heldrakes and daemons! The tough nut to swallow though is that you are required to take one of the weaker HQ choices as your HQ to get TS as troops (and this is part of the "overcosted" bit), a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch.

 

Taking a Sorcerer with MoT is like downgrading your sorcerer one level, since both biomancy and telepathy have witchfire spells you'd rather use than a Tzeentch spell, and you will try to max out on those schools as much as you can.

This a hundred times this, the lore of tzeentch is a half baked, castrated shell of a lore compared to the other chaos ones, let alone the rulebook ones, it is for this reason I use Ahriman in bigger games as he is actually a level 3 sorcerer as Tzeentch in most cases is effectively a downgrade on your sorcerers, plus his staff allows him to use multiple witchfires, which you will need due to the lore of suck. It wouldn't ve so bad if the lore of Tzeentch allowed you to take invun saves against perils, or gave you an extra level, but as it is Tzeentchian psykers are the worst in game. 

[Xaric]

You meen the icon is for 5 models in the unit with bolt guns 3 points per model... it effects the hole unit not just one model so to work out the priceing acording to how meny models in the unit take 9 thats 1.6 points per model i work out my point cost for what each model in the unit can do with the upgrade not what 1 model has yes if he get picked off you loose the buff for the hole unit but i am sure most people will aim for the units leader other then the icon.

 

Compared to giving the sorcerer melta bombs for a flat rate of points.

[Excessus]

No matter how many bolters you fire the target unit only gets one soul blaze token my friend, and thus no matter how many TS you have in your squad, it's still an extra ap5 bolter for 15 points...

 

Giving the sorcerer melta bombs adds extra utility to the unit and makes them capable to take down walkers and MCs that they otherwise would be useless against, the icon does not add any utility to the unit.

[Xaric]

It does matter to apply the soul blaze you need to score a unsaved wound not just hit the target more shots equal more unsaved wound chance. Also thousand sons bolters are AP3 and the soul blaze rule is AP5 with no Cover saves

[Excessus]

For marines in the open, you are likely to score one unsaved wound with only a squad of five anyway, or even in cover. It's just that sadly, the extra bolter shot don't do that much. Personally I have never seen soul blaze run for more than one turn max myself. Usually the squad dies or the flames die...

[Xaric]

i think the max i've had it run for is 2 turns.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I don't think I have ever seen it kill anything. Plus compare it to the effects the other banners do, and then look at how ours gives us a rule that by most is considered pointless, and it is, 15pts just is not worth it, if icons still homed in deepstriking like has already been said, it woudl be awesome.
Out of interest, has anyone had luck with mark of Tzeentch obliterators?

[Excessus]

Out of interest, has anyone had luck with mark of Tzeentch obliterators?

Every time I used mine with MoT they got Instakilled...I've stopped trying...

[Xenith]

Well I have been playing 40k for about 1 year now and when I browse the forums for information I see people class things as bad or downright useless with no example or reasoning to why it is "they suck". To me this is not a valid reason to not use things from the codex or BRB this is just out right ignorance so this is what I did research on.

 

Thousand sons with icon of flame.

You have beam weapons wrong - you draw a line 18" from the sorcerer, than every model under the line takes a hit.

Firestorm  has generally low S, low AP. One good shot with doombolt will kill more than firestorm will all game, more than likely. I've killed 1 plaguebearer in 3 games with it. Bolters do what firestorm does, better than firestorm does it. I'd rather the sorc had a bolter, tbh.

 

I actually like boon. despite the risks, I have a TDA lord, next to 2 TS sorcs with boon, if I can manage it, and they boost him all game. It's kind of funny. Until he princes or spawns.

 

 

 

Thousand sons as a unit

 

 

I like them as a unit, but they are totally unfluffy. TS are supposed to be near impervious to low strength shooting, with the enemy needing anti tank rounds to take them out. The current rules are the opposite of this. Their weapons are also less effective, point per point, against weaker opponents. They should be S4 poisoned or something, rather than AP3, so they get rerolls to wound vs stuff.

 

Thousand sons are only better against things with a 3+ or 4+ armour save with no invulnerable. Against 2+ saves, or 5+ saves, they are point for point, less effective than a regular dude with bolter who is ~10pts less.

 

 

 

The helbrute vs other walkers

 

Helbrute I always take one over the other walkers do you want to know why? Because the others are huge and intimidating and more likely going to get focused I don't want my unit that is designed in mind to blow there heavy support up being focused... Also the cost is cheaper and the fact that it has a possibility when taking a wound to fire 2x every weapon anyone seen this beast fire 2x twin-linked lascannon and krakk missile's before lets just put it this way nothing was left of the last person who shot him.

 

Sorry about my gramma and spelling and also sorry this turned into a rant it just makes me think that people play chess thinking that because one of the back units died that its game over...

While the brute is much better in this edition, 6th really hurt walkers. they went from being hit on a 6 in combat with grenades to being hit on WS (12 guardsmen get 6 hits instead of 2...) and the hullpoints rule mean it can be glanced to death. If it had the 5+ invulnerable and it will not die rules, then it would be excellent. It can also not take the havoc launcher, the weapon that was originally designed to go on the dreadnaught.

 

 

The shooty platform dread - TLLC and ML - runs at about 135pts. 144pts gets you 4 terminators with combimeltas, who are better at tank killing.

If I could run one with plasma cannon, missile launcherand havoc launcher for ~140pts, then I would in a flash, as it puts out enough templates to be useful. 

 

The main problem with the units, is that a lot of them do the same thing as other units in the codex, and the other units do it better, or for less points.

 

 

 

Out of interest, has anyone had luck with mark of Tzeentch obliterators?

Every time I used mine with MoT they got Instakilled...I've stopped trying...

 

Same here. Mark of nurgle is cheaper, and better at keeping the obliterators alive. 4+ cover is given by ruins for free.

 

This is not to say that I don't enjoy using the army. It's just really ineffective.

[Hellios]

What do you guys think about giving 1kSons 2 wounds and EW, with or without an invulnerable save? Without the ++ it would also be easy to apply to other units. So Terminators with 2W and EW. 2W would help them with small arms (like when they had 2 wounds in the past), and EW would stop an expensive unit being destroyed by any S8+ blast weapons... which are normally AP3 as well...

 

AP3 bolters are fine (although I don't think 1KSons need it), but being able to change ammo types (like sternguard) would be great; even if it required a psychic test. The psychic test would also make keeping the sorcerer alive important. I think these two changes would make 1ksons tougher and more flexible, while leaving the unit with its current character.

 

1) Current AP3 round.

2) Heavy/Assault 1 Armor bane round S4 AP6. S4 + 2D6... Means you should be able to deal with transports, and with enough hits... even a land raider is in trouble... Haywire could be another option.... if we use haywire we can reduce the strength of the weapon.

3) Poison (5+), torrent (or maybe small blast, ignores cover) AP6. I want something that can hurt MCs and gribble (gaunts/orks/guard), but I don't want it to be a no brainer, sometimes it might be better to use AP3 rounds. You need to decide if ignoring cover or hitting but loads with a template is worth having a tougher time wounding, or the unit getting a save.

 

These are just ideas. Oh and if your sorcerer dies... you are stuck on whatever you used in your last round of shooting. I don't think this would make 1Ksons great against MCs, we would really hurt some gribble units, while remaining fairly meh against others, especially if they are spread out. I don't know... I'm not sure about this fire type...

 

And we are still weak to units with a 2+. We arn't as good in combat as the other cult troops (except the sorcerer, who has to accept challenges, and you really don't want him to die, or become a spawn or DP).

[JamesI]

I don't think I have ever seen it kill anything. Plus compare it to the effects the other banners do, and then look at how ours gives us a rule that by most is considered pointless, and it is, 15pts just is not worth it, if icons still homed in deepstriking like has already been said, it woudl be awesome.

Out of interest, has anyone had luck with mark of Tzeentch obliterators?

I use MoT Obliterators every game.  Work ok for me (though Nurgle would be better, but I'm trying to stay fluffier)

[Xenith]

2W-EW is a bit much, 2W would be enough, I feel - A unit of TS should be annihilated by a battlecannon!

 

One thought I had was, that seeing as TS are essentially animated suits of armour...much like Wraithguard...and have powerful weapons...just like wraithguard...why not make them base T6-7, no invun.

 

Immune to small arms fire, still get lascannoned like the best of them.

[Excessus]

Xenith, a better rule would be just to give them Daemon of Tzeentch instead of Mark of Tzeentch. That way they get a decent shield against small-arms fire, but will still get annihilated by armour piercing stuff and heavy weapons. Giving them a higher toughness would make them vurneable to poison to a high extent, which would be unfluffy...

 

 

Either way these changes would never come to pass anyway... :P

[Xenith]

Yea, I agree that the DoT rule is more appropiate than the MoT rule, my only issue is how it interacts with terminators - rerollable 2+ save? still the basic 5+ from ap2, though.

[Hellios]

2W-EW is a bit much, 2W would be enough, I feel - A unit of TS should be annihilated by a battlecannon!

 

One thought I had was, that seeing as TS are essentially animated suits of armour...much like Wraithguard...and have powerful weapons...just like wraithguard...why not make them base T6-7, no invun.

 

Immune to small arms fire, still get lascannoned like the best of them.

 

The problem is that 1kSons are shooty, and expensive. A guard player can probably bring a russ for each 1Kson squad you have. It's not pretty. If you don't have an invulnerable save... That Russ is still going to hurt you... It might just take 2 turns instead of 1. The sorcerer also wouldn't have 2 wounds and EW, if that is a rubric thing.... So the sorcerer would still be vulnerable.

 

If you are going the T6-7 route, just give them 'All is Dust' from the old rules. They just ignored low strength ranged weapon (which I guess would include poison as well) attacks. All basic weapons except for those of the Tau would be unable to hurt them. They would get messed up by large templates (which is a serious problem for Rubrics without a ++). However, people would still be able to take them on in combat and still be able to hurt them.

[Xenith]

The problem is that 1kSons are shooty, and expensive. A guard player can probably bring a russ for each 1Kson squad you have. It's not pretty. If you don't have an invulnerable save... That Russ is still going to hurt you...

But you're looking at it in a vaccuum, the russ may kill the TS in one shot, but the 6 obliterators you also have will kill the russ, ad infinitum.

 

I agree the base immunity to S4 or less from 3rd was great, but seemed to be at odds with modern rule writing. Although the Avatars 'molten body' and the sallies special rules single out specific weapon types, so this kind of rule is making a comeback.

 

Anyway, the humble Thousand Son has been slated enough!

[Hellios]

 

The problem is that 1kSons are shooty, and expensive. A guard player can probably bring a russ for each 1Kson squad you have. It's not pretty. If you don't have an invulnerable save... That Russ is still going to hurt you...

But you're looking at it in a vaccuum, the russ may kill the TS in one shot, but the 6 obliterators you also have will kill the russ, ad infinitum.

 

I agree the base immunity to S4 or less from 3rd was great, but seemed to be at odds with modern rule writing. Although the Avatars 'molten body' and the sallies special rules single out specific weapon types, so this kind of rule is making a comeback.

 

Anyway, the humble Thousand Son has been slated enough!

 

Oh, I know that, but If I took normal CSM I could buy even more Oblits. I really want to run a decent 'pure' 1kson list at some point. I don't expect it to be god-tier, or even top-tier, but I would like a strong middle-tier list that has a decent chance as an all-comers list. At the moment I feel I can only do this by running daemons (and the daemons are the strength in my list). In the future I would like a strong (but flexible) backbone of rubrics and sorcerers. This would then be supported by Rubric terminators, chosen sorcerers, and Tzeentch daemons. Chaos vehicles would then be sprinkled in to the users taste.

[Xenith]

If you are lucky, a pure TS list can do wonders, and be endlessly frustrating for your opponent. 

 

I am pretty good at rolling 4+, and can be that player.

 

I'd always go with 2x9 TS marines. I do like a big squad of terminators, then 2x3 obliterators.

 

Ahriman is still a rouge element for me. I have never gotten the most out of him in games. The stuff he is shooting at isn't what I want my TS to be shooting at. I may just have to o pure biomancy on him and beef up the TS.

 

A few squads of cultists for cheap scoring is good, and go agressive with the thousand sons, force your opponent to deal with them.

[Excessus]

Put Ahriman with your termies, he wants to shoot at the same targets as their combi-plasma (at least mine does with his biomancy stuff, most of the shooting there is AP2), and he gives them fearless. :)

[Hellios]

If you are lucky, a pure TS list can do wonders, and be endlessly frustrating for your opponent. 

 

I am pretty good at rolling 4+, and can be that player.

 

Don't get me wrong, I run 1KSons. I've had a single Rubric Marine kill Ghazgkull Mag Uruk Thraka in single combat. I kept passing saves, and the ork player kept rolling ones.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I had a thought about how you could make an icon for Tzeentch that is worthwhile to use, and thought about this:
Icon of Change:20pts Gives all weapons and close combat attacks used by the unit Soulfire, characters may add or subtract one to their result on the boon table, Pyskers may use their invulnerable save against perils. The unit champion may purchase a psychic level at 15pts.

[Excessus]

I think the answer more lies in the rule Soul Blaze, and making it worth while. As it stands now it's almost no gain at all for a weapon or model to have the rule, why not have it put a burn marker per unsaved wound caused instead of just one total?