Experiences with Cypher in Chaos list

[Valaskjalf]

Hey guys

 

Im thinking of trying out Cypher at some point to get some of those infiltrating Chosen to see whether it can cause some sort of a stir. Has any of you used him with the listed formation? Is he viable or did you find him way too expensive for what he bring?

Thanks

[Gumo9]

I used Cypher yesterday for the first time along with 3 units of chosen against eldar. Had a great game and I will definately be using this setup again.

 

Infiltrate was great against my numerically superior opponent for getting closer to those objectives without transports and Cypher's enhanced cover save was very useful. One thing I forgot though was that his plasma pistol does not get hot. If I had looked more carefully I would not have lost 2 wounds off him because of this.

 

By the way, despite internet wisdom, the chosen were great. One squad with 5 plasma, the other 2 squads with a mix of flamers and meltas. They scythed down enemy units quickly and easily and the enemy promptly legged it off the board. Including 2 units of rangers in cover. In my view it is a very strong formation and one that is great fun to play.

 

Enjoy

 

G

[Valaskjalf]

I used Cypher yesterday for the first time along with 3 units of chosen against eldar. Had a great game and I will definately be using this setup again.

 

Infiltrate was great against my numerically superior opponent for getting closer to those objectives without transports and Cypher's enhanced cover save was very useful. One thing I forgot though was that his plasma pistol does not get hot. If I had looked more carefully I would not have lost 2 wounds off him because of this.

 

By the way, despite internet wisdom, the chosen were great. One squad with 5 plasma, the other 2 squads with a mix of flamers and meltas. They scythed down enemy units quickly and easily and the enemy promptly legged it off the board. Including 2 units of rangers in cover. In my view it is a very strong formation and one that is great fun to play.

 

Enjoy

 

G

Awesome its great to hear that it was fun AND effective....certainly seems fun to play and good that Chosen finally have some use - I converted mine from the DV box into Noise Marines so will definitely be trying this out once I get some more.

 

So in cover Cypher would give them a 3+ coversave right?

[Gumo9]

Shrouded gives +2 to your cover save, so a 5+ save out in the open, or just improve your save by 2 if you are in any form of cover.

 

That will do for me !

 

G

[Trevak Dal]

Do the Chosen have And They Shall Know no Fear by dint of being taken with Cypher?

[FENRISÚLFUR]

Do the Chosen have And They Shall Know no Fear by dint of being taken with Cypher?

Going off a foggy memory, but yes the chosen taken with Cypher's formation have ATSKNF.

[Gumo9]

Cypher's unit does indeed have ATSKNF.

 

My chosen are Black Legion so I had the VotLW upgrade. Ld 10 meant no failed morale checks all game which was reassuring.

 

G

[RolandTHTG]

Cypher's chosen get ATSKNF & LD 01 as long as the squad is within 12 in of him. They cannot buy marks, transports or VotLW however. (But they can buy the fearless icon)

[FENRISÚLFUR]

Cypher's chosen get ATSKNF & LD 01 as long as the squad is within 12 in of him. They cannot buy marks, transports or VotLW however. (But they can buy the fearless icon)

 

 

I think that they can buy VotLW, but I may be mistaken as I don't have the dataslate infront of me.

[Fibonacci]

"Units of Chosen from this Formation cannot take Chaos Rewards, Chaos Artefacts, Marks of Chaos or Dedicated Transports"

 

Does not say anything about VotLW.  However, the version of the chosen rules in the dataslate don't include the option to take it either.   I would think that if you use the cypher rules to take the formation you would use Cyper dataslate rules for the chosen taken in the formation.  So no VotLW

[FENRISÚLFUR]

Huh, well I'll be. I think that's sort of odd that they can't take VotLW as the fallen are also from the time of the Great Crusade, but it does not have VotLW as an option. Either way I think this dataslate and formation are well worth a try, and can be very effective.

[RolandTHTG]

Huh, well I'll be. I think that's sort of odd that they can't take VotLW as the fallen are also from the time of the Great Crusade, but it does not have VotLW as an option. Either way I think this dataslate and formation are well worth a try, and can be very effective.

Oh yea, I definitely like it. Brings back our old-style infiltrating Chosen, which are always fun to run.

[Gumo9]

Probably one for the Rules forum but it does not say VotLW is excluded and the dataslate does not replace the codex. The codex allows VotLW for chaos chosen.

 

G

[Sception]

Actually, in this case the dataslate does replace the codex.  Chosen for the dataslate formation are taken from the dataslate entry.  The veteran nature of the fallen is represented by their other special rules.

[Fibonacci]

 the dataslate does not replace the codex.

That's kind of key. If you take chosen from the dataslate you take that dataslate's rules.  If you take chosen from the codex you use the codex rules. 

However, if you want to use the Cypher's formation you have to use the rules in the dataslate where the formation rules are. 

 

The rules in the codex do not say they can Infiltrate, get ATSKNF or be taken without using a force org chart.  If you want those rules you take the dataslate version which have an entirely diferent set of rules. Either/or but not both.  At least we have a choice and may pick the version we need.

 

[edit]

FWIW, I really don't care.  If you want to take VotLW on your chosen when playing me, go right ahead.  You pay for you get it. 

[Sception]

2 points a model is way too much for that rule, anyway, especially on a unit that is mostly being taken in small special weapon spam configurations.

[Gumo9]

Not another chosen are rubbish thread !

 

No more comments on the subject from me. The OP asked for experiences and I gave mine. The formation worked well.

 

As for the rules lawyering, play it any way you and your opponent are happy with. It's only a game after all.

 

G

[Sception]

Who said chosen were rubbish in this thread? There's been some disagreement on whether they are allowed to take vets, and the statement that the upgrade probably isn't worth taking even if you could take it, but nobody here has said the unit is bad, at least not from the fallen formation, and especially not the one unit joined by cypher that benefits from his shrouded and hit & run. All I'm saying is that I would take them as a close range shooty squad, capitolizing on cyphers rules, and skip pricey melee upgrades like power weapons or hatred, whether you believe it's an option or not.

 

Also, just so we're all on the same leve', because some of the previous posts seemed a bit ambiguous about it, formations are not part of your primary detachment. If you take the fallen as part of a black legion army, the chosen are not required to purchase vets, even if you think they can, and are not scoring or troops even if they do.

[Gumo9]

Must have missed those rules Mal. Where does it say that?

 

Looking at the first couple of pages of the dataslate it does not read as you describe. Incidently it also says that the army list entries are found in either the codex or the dataslate. No mention of the dataslate replacing the entries.

 

Like I said, play it how you want but this is not a rules thread. Perhaps take it to the rules forum.

 

Back on track... Anyone else apart from me actually used the formation in a game, as per the OP?

 

G

[Sception]

We cannot have a discussion of how to use a formation if we cannot agree on how it is used. House rules are fine, but they need to be called out when present, so that people know they may not be able to use the units the same way in their own games.

As for formations forming a separate detachment, rather than being part of your primary detachment, It's right there, Gum.  See the formations section near the start of the dataslate.
 

When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of Detachment.  Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army, and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units it makes up.

(emphasis added)

 
ie, they are not part of your primary detachment, and not subject to rules which affect your primary detachment.  Fallen units are no more subject to the restrictions or benefits of chosen in the Black Legion supplement than allied chosen from the parent codex would be.

Note that this is different from simply taking Cypher on his own. If you take him on his own, from any of the several armis that can field him, then he counts as an HQ from the primary detachment, though he does not take any slots and cannot be the warlord. All of this, again, is spelled out in the dataslate.

 

The army list entries for each unit in the Formation (the units' profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself

 

In this case, the unit entry is found in the dataslate itself, so that is the version you should be using for the formation, including that they are elites (and thus not scoring). Now, the lack of vets as an option you could argue is an oversight, after all the formation does specifically call out the other parent book options that Fallen aren't allowed to take (marks, etc), but doesn't mention vets. It's certainly a reasonable position, as reasonable as claiming that the 5 point power fists are a misprint. I would not refuse to play against a person playing them that way.

However, in terms of how to field them, I don't think that 2 points a model for a leadership buff and situational hatred is worth the cost on units that are typically run as small, special weapon squads, usually with ATSKNF from proximity to Cypher, and especially not on the squad joined by cypher himself, which will already be Ld10*.

As far as the fluff of the matter - fallen already have a number of special rules built in to represent their veteran status, and Cypher himself lacks the vets rule. Imo it would be thematically odd for regular fallen units to have it but Cypher not to, but that's just my opinion.

What isn't up for debate is that chosen from the fallen formation are not troops choices in a black legion army, vets or no. They're in a separate detachment, they aren't part of a Black Legion detachment, they aren't Black Legion chosen.

 

 

*vets is, on the other hand, very worth having for your warlord, particularly if they're a sorcerer or psycher of any kind, to counter-act the warlord leadership penalty for fielding Cypher.

[Gumo9]

Very good explanation Mal, that makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to type it up.

 

Where the objectives were on the board, 2 units were well away from Cypher so I was glad of the extra Ld when they started to take casualties. it was a shame that I couldn't make use of the "hatred" because it was eldar and not space marines though.

 

I want to use the formation again in some upcoming games but i've used chosen a lot lately and should probably try out some other units that I've been avoiding.

 

G

[Sception]

I look forward to any reports you might be able to provide, particularly of successes or just general experiences with some of the poorly-thought-of units. Things like possessed, dreadnoughts, warp talons, thousand sons, apostles, defilers, dreadclaws, kharybdis; and to a lesser extent berserkers, non-termicide terminator configurations, raptors, fiends, and special characters apart from huron and be'lakor. Hell, if you're willing to test out even some of the more highly thought of forgeworld options, like the storm eagle or fire raptor, that would still be a big help.

 

Escalation reports and games using CSMs with allies other than daemons or more CSMs (via the BL sup) are also sparse on the ground around here, and online more generally. Successful use (or even anecdotal demonstration of the uselessness) of the less common artifacts (basically anything other than axe, mace, brand, skull, memory, and spineshiver) would also be helpful.

 

I don't really expect you to find anything all that far removed from common wisdom, but it's always nice to see more demonstrations of something than just my own personal experiences.