question on unforgiven secrets: why big deal?

[XKhalilX]

so i have some questions regarding loyalists and DA during heresy:

1. did the loyalist chapters not have traitors or were traitors very minimum? (i havent kept up with reading bks in years).

 

2. do the dark angels and unforgiven not in inner circles actually believe the first legion had no traitors? and also did the imperium at HH time as well as present actually believe the dark angels were completely loyal and held no traitors? i would assume no one was free of traitors. even the traitor legioms purged their loyalists so i would assume the loyalists purged their small number of traitors.

 

3. now in regards to above questions, if the imperium and non inner circle brothers of all the unforgiven past and presenr know that every loyalist legion had its share of traitors (if thats true) and no one was 100% free of the taint, then why would the war on caliban be such a big deal to hide???

and given the lion and majority remained loyal i dont see why its such a horrid secret to keep if all the legions had treachery in their ranks (thats theoretically if they all did, u avid HH readers would know better then me).

it would seem to me that if all loyalist legions had traitors that the DA having them too would not be a shocker to any. so why the fuss?

 

now if none of the loyalist legions had traitors then i can see why the secret partially in theory. but say they were only ones w. traitors BUT the lion and overwhelming majority of DA remained loyal then why the fuss?

[Master Avoghai]

There's a difference between a squad or a battlforce turning into traitors and half a LEGION leading to the destruction of the legion's homeworld...

[Cactus]

1. As far as I know there are no records of traitor Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists or Salamanders during the Horus Heresy. That could of course change.

 

2. Anybody outside the Dark Angels' Inner Circle should know nothing of Luther's betrayal or the internecine conflict that erupted when the Lion returned to Caliban.

 

3. It's easy to look back over 10,000 years and say 'Well, there were lots of traitors all over the place then, but we dealt with them and we're all cool now.' However there must have been an intense feeling of paranoia and suspicion throughout the Imperium in the immediate aftermath of the Horus Heresy. The Dark Angels may have received a very hostile reaction if they had come clean at the time, possibly jeopardising the continued existence of the legion/chapter. Brushing it under the carpet must have seemed like the safest option. The knowledge that there were survivors from Caliban at large in the galaxy came later.

[Bryan Blaire]

Also, consider that the reason that they have to keep up with the cover up/secret is that they kept it a secret and have done some "very bad things" to keep it a secret. Now they are keeping all of that a secret. If one little part starts to slip, it would be like a house of cards and it all would end up coming out. Also consider that the Fallen aren't the only secret being kept... the Inner Circle also keeps it a secret that the Unforgiven are still a Legion in operations (somewhat) and the "undisclosed number" of Marines in the 1st and 2nd Companies, both facts of which are violations of the Codex Astartes and decrees from Terra, as well as being part and parcel to the Hunt for the Fallen.

 

So, seems simple on the surface, but becomes a lot more damning once you start tunneling into the issue.

[Eternal Warrior]

I wish they would have called off the great search as soon as they figured out that those marines that fled to the eye could reappear in any time and location across the eternities. I love my 1st legion more than any other, but the amount of imperial lives lost, both military and civilian, from the angels quitting the field all of a sudden, has been monumental. The amount of good that would be done if the entirety of the first legion went full offensive just looking to eradicate chaos, not capture one dude. It would be glorious

[Azoriel]

I wish they would have called off the great search as soon as they figured out that those marines that fled to the eye could reappear in any time and location across the eternities. I love my 1st legion more than any other, but the amount of imperial lives lost, both military and civilian, that have been lost from the angels quitting the field all of a sudden. The amount of good that would be done if the entirety of the first legion went full offensive just looking to eradicate chaos, not capture one dude. It would be glorious

 

Play as angels of absolution or a successor chapter of theirs?

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Angels_of_Absolution#Background

 

Their structure and belief are still very similar to those of their progenitor chapter, to the point that the two chapters have often joined forces and pooled resources in the hunt of The Fallen. The only noticeable difference in their doctrines is that the Angels of Absolution consider themselves absolved (nomen est omen) of their own sins during the Fall of Caliban, and place a greater amount of emphasis on their holy duty of just hunting the Fallen as such and not to redeem themselves.

It's probable that the Inner Circle of this chapter gained a great victory to consider themselves absolved, though whatever this victory was is known only to the chapter and they believe they have earned it. However this belief isn't shared amongst the other Unforgiven Chapters, but all strife seems to have been contained and they continue to cooperate with them.

[Eternal Warrior]

Made my own. Angels Praetorian. I was going to to absolution but decided to go my own route. The fact that they exist makes me happy though.

[Seleucus]

I have not read any of the HH books etc. so do not know how/whether the following is addressed:

 

- How did the DA actually hide what happened at, to, or on Caliban?

 

- How did they explain it's destruction to Terra?

 

- As all the surviving loyal DA would have known, at the very least, of the destruction of Caliban, and that their traitorous brothers had fired on them, does this mean all loyalist DA at the time of the HH, were, effectively, members of the inner circle? I would have thought it would have been vey difficult for this not to be the case, and keeping it quiet when splitting into the 2nd founding chapters.

 

- Surely, by now, (though more likely nearer the time of the HH) one of the Fallen would have realised that the best way to betray the DA's secret was to surrender to a senior Inquisitor/Ecclesiarch and spill the beans? OK, he would be commiting suicide, probably painfully, as interrogators would be used to check his story, but he would be getting his revenge!

[SvenONE]

It's important to note that the Heresy Started with the Word Bearers and it spread via their "lodges".  The traitor legions also didn't 100% change, the Primarchs had sent their loyal troops to the surface while they were bombarded by virus bombs (Fulgrim/Flight of the Eisenstein).  There's no reports of the loyalist legions having lodges so it's probably safe to assume that they didn't.  That said, Luther was swayed by Chaos, I can't fully remember how though.  Also if I remembered correctly, Fallen Angels and Angels of Darkness have some opposing canon issues (but I supposed that helps fuel the intrigue, I just remember liking Fallen Angels better).

[Eternal Warrior]

While I love the Horus heresy books are amazing, the dark angel books left a sour taste in many people mouths. Proceed with caution :) all of the other books are amazing though.

 

1) the only ones who knew about Caliban was either a loyalist or traitor dark angel so not much to hide.

 

2) the battle for Caliban was towards the closing of the battle for Terra so other people were a little preoccupied. Also the traitor forces went out of their way to destroy loyalist strongholds.

 

3) when the Lion have the order to attack, knowing the gravity of the situation, you launch the offensive. Tears in our eyes and vengeance in our hearts.

 

4) maybe they have ulterior motives ;)

[XKhalilX]

referring to #4 or maybe the fallen are in fact the loyalists and the loyalists are in fact the victorious traitors. no one would believe the fallens story....

 

oh whats that u say, asmodai needs to speak to me? of what i cant imagine.

[SvenONE]

referring to #4 or maybe the fallen are in fact the loyalists and the loyalists are in fact the victorious traitors. no one would believe the fallens story....

 

oh whats that u say, asmodai needs to speak to me? of what i cant imagine.

 

I think that's a great part of the intrigue of Dark Angels.  After all, who do can you trust!

 

In the end though I don't buy that theory.  Only because you'd think in the last 10,000 years the "traitor" chapter (that is the current DA chapter) would have maybe made a move or two in terrorizing the Imperium, they've pretty much done anything but that.  Especially since you'd think by Pandorax that the Grey Knights would at least have a hunch.

[Bryan Blaire]

Luther was swayed by materials he read in the surviving books from the Knights of Lupus. He was basically a self-taught Chaos sorcerer. IIRC, the new Lord Cypher's part in that may have been in showing Luther the books or not doing better in keeping him away from them.

[Eternal Warrior]

Also jealousy, true deep seeded jealousy, can cause a man to make terrible decisions. Ones that he realized before his killing blow landed. Beware of jealousy.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The Dark Angels felt the shame of treachery more keenly than anyone else, and they feared the reaction of the Imperium to the knowledge that their entire world was basically a Chaos planet that caused everyone on it, well, most of them, to fall. Chances are the High Lords would have gone 'oh...if those have been corrupted cos of Caliban, the rest might be...Oh well, better safe than sorry!' then they proceed to remove another Legion.

 

Then, as others have said, its just a mountain of lies and secrets.

[Phoebus]

Warning, there are some minor spoilers below.

 

so i have some questions regarding loyalists and DA during heresy:
1. did the loyalist chapters not have traitors or were traitors very minimum? (i havent kept up with reading bks in years).

 

As of right now, we know there was a significant number of White Scars who sought to join Horus.  Most, however, capitulated when Jaghatai Khan made known his decision to stay loyal to the Emperor.

 

2. do the dark angels and unforgiven not in inner circles actually believe the first legion had no traitors? and also did the imperium at HH time as well as present actually believe the dark angels were completely loyal and held no traitors?

 

To the first question, correct.  To the second question, there would naturally have been questions regarding the status of the Dark Angels because Imperial interstellar communications and travel were compromised following the Battle of Calth (see Know No Fear for more details).  The Dark Angels were stuck in Thramas Sector fighting a cat-and-mouse war against the Night Lords.  Thus, to the Imperials of that sector, the loyalties of the Dark Angels were obvious.  The rest of the Imperium would not find out until later, though.  In The Unremembered Empire, Guilliman convinces the Lion that he does not intend to create his own empire, and Jonson's own loyalty is made obvious to both the Lord of Ultramar and Sanguinius - who arrives on Macragge near the end of the novel.

 

3. now in regards to above questions, if the imperium and non inner circle brothers of all the unforgiven past and presenr know that every loyalist legion had its share of traitors (if thats true) and no one was 100% free of the taint, then why would the war on caliban be such a big deal to hide???
and given the lion and majority remained loyal i dont see why its such a horrid secret to keep if all the legions had treachery in their ranks (thats theoretically if they all did, u avid HH readers would know better then me).
it would seem to me that if all loyalist legions had traitors that the DA having them too would not be a shocker to any. so why the fuss?

now if none of the loyalist legions had traitors then i can see why the secret partially in theory. but say they were only ones w. traitors BUT the lion and overwhelming majority of DA remained loyal then why the fuss?

 

Regardless of what the rest of the Adeptus Astartes know or don't know, the Inner Circle has maintained tight control of their Legion's history.  Dark Angels are inducted into circles of knowledge as they gain experience and demonstrate loyalty, resolve, and dependability.

 

The context behind the decision of the Dark Angels is the Scouring itself.  Whether any of the rest of the Legions had a few traitors here and there is irrelevant.  The conduct of the White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Blood Angels during the Siege of Terra put their loyalty beyond question.  The Iron Hands appear to have been fanatical enough in their quest to avenge Ferrus Manus that their loyalty was not in doubt, either.  Similarly, the Salamanders and Raven Guard suffered so much at Isstvan V that there were hardly any of them left for there to be any significant number of traitors (though at least ONE Raven Guard traitor is shown in the novella "Prince of Crows", serving alongside the Night Lords).  The Ultramarines, of course, were instrumental in the securing and reformation of the Imperium, and the Space Wolves combat record and allegedly appointed role made them a trusted commodity as well.  At any rate, if there HAD been any traitors (beyond those mentioned already) within the ranks of the above Legions, they had been taken care during the Heresy itself.

 

Alone among the loyal Legions, then the Dark Angels found treachery in their ranks after the Heresy.  At a time when paranoia and distrust was at its highest within the Imperium, the Dark Angels felt they could not afford to reveal that an internal schism had led to the loss of their planet AND their primarch.  They legitimately believed that the powers that be would destroy their Legion rather than risk more traitors.  So they kept it a secret.

 

All would have been well, except for the return of the Fallen.  The Dark Angels and their Successors have committed crime after crime in the name of the Hunt against the Fallen.  They have abandoned comrades in the field of battle, pursued their own objectives above those of the Imperium, and ignored both the letter and the spirit of the Codex Astartes in that they very much do operate as a Legion - though in secret, of course.  All these transgressions have acted as compounding interest for the original treason of Luther and his comrades.  With every such transgression, the Dark Angels have even more to cover up and even more of a reason to continue covering everything up.

 

It's a vicious circle.

 

- How did the DA actually hide what happened at, to, or on Caliban?

- How did they explain it's destruction to Terra?

 

From Codex: Dark Angels...

 

 

“Psykers across the galaxy had sensed the Warp storm [that had destroyed Caliban], ... However, the Dark Angels had a systematic cover up of the truth in place, for each remaining battle-brother had taken ... vows ... to never reveal what really took place on Caliban. Their story might not have held up under an intense inquiry, but it was a time of great upheaval in the Imperium ... That a Warp storm had claimed the Dark Angels’ homeworld, and so many of their brethren, was but another tragedy in a deluge of grim tidings.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Codex: Dark Angels.” Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks.

 

 

- As all the surviving loyal DA would have known, at the very least, of the destruction of Caliban, and that their traitorous brothers had fired on them, does this mean all loyalist DA at the time of the HH, were, effectively, members of the inner circle? I would have thought it would have been vey difficult for this not to be the case, and keeping it quiet when splitting into the 2nd founding chapters.

 

That was more or less the case.  Again, from the Codex:

 

 

“The senior members of the Legion formed a secret conclave – an Inner Circle of the Legion’s Masters. They created an overlapping system to watch over their own Brothers, and also themselves. Everyone must be scrutinised for signs of corruption. Thus started a spiral of mistrust and secrecy that continues to this day.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Codex: Dark Angels.” Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks.

 

This obviously would have extended to the Successor Chapters of the Unforgiven.  The natural attrition of combat would ensure that, within scant centuries, those with any knowledge of what happened on Caliban were a highly trusted minority.  The close ties between the Unforgiven (read: the fact that they operated more or less as a secret Legion) would ensure that the Successors of the Dark Angels did not break the covenant.  Even the Angels of Absolution, who consider their sins expunged, maintain their own equivalents of the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, and the Ravenwing, and participate in the Hunt for the Fallen.

 

- Surely, by now, (though more likely nearer the time of the HH) one of the Fallen would have realised that the best way to betray the DA's secret was to surrender to a senior Inquisitor/Ecclesiarch and spill the beans? OK, he would be commiting suicide, probably painfully, as interrogators would be used to check his story, but he would be getting his revenge!

 

Priorities, I suppose.  Surrender is probably anathema to most Chaos Space Marines, just as it is for loyal warriors of the Adeptus Astartes.  And besides, the Fallen were, in their own way "true believers" of Luther's vision.  They are precious few, and I imagine they would spit at the idea of seeing their ranks shrink even more in such a sacrifice.  Far better to fight against the Dark Angels and their Imperium.

 

As for the Fallen who have realized Luther was wrong and repented?  They'd be even less likely to betray their erstwhile brethren (again), and probably even more leery of wasting a chance at redemption by seeking to turn themselves into the Ordos.

[XKhalilX]

so what of the loss of the lion? how did the DA explain that one? that he died in the "warp storm that destroyed caliban?"

 

also were most of the loyalists terran born and most fallen calibanites? or was there a great deal of mixing on both sides?

[Phoebus]

To the first, the Codex implies that you have it right:  that the destruction of Caliban was used to explain the death of the Lion to the Imperium.  In Ravenwing, however, we see that the truth of the matter is tightly controlled even in the 41st millennium.  After being inducted into the Ravenwing, a character is told that Horus killed the Lion.  Personally, I think that's a pretty dubious idea... but whatever.

 

To the second, it's not something that's easily confirmed.  Back in the day, when Angels of Darkness was the sole novel about the Dark Angels, it was said that most of the Fallen were Terrans.  Fallen Angels describes Luther being sent back to Caliban with five hundred Dark Angels - mostly Calibanites.  There were a total of three training Chapters by the beginning of the Heresy, though, so Astelan's may have been one of them - and thus as many as a thousand Terrans (or more) could have been on Caliban.  There's another thread where I used the figures provided by Fallen Angels to estimate the size of Luther's force, and if I recall correctly that round figure was about 24,000 Space Marines.  Of those, all but 1-2,000 (assuming two of the three training Chapters were Terrans) would have been born on Caliban.

[Phoebus]

XKhalilX,

 

Below is the post I was referring to. Ironically, it had been addressed to you! :D

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283214-how-many-does-the-fallen-number/?p=3520333

[DiscipleOfCaliban]

"The two chapters' teachings are largely consistent - the only divergence lies in the emphasis placed on the Chapter's guilt concerning the Fallen. Though it is a subtle distinction, the Angels of Absolution consider their own sins expunged by the actions of their forefathers in the Fall of Caliban. Though the Angels of Absolution fear no spiritual damnation from the Fall, they still consider themselves responsible for meting out the punishment upon the traitors."

 

Ok, so this shows the DA feel "sins" and expect "spiritual damnation" if they do not hunt the Fallen. This shows they take it very personally and feel great shame about it so they would want to keep it secret because of this. Also, this shows that the Unforgiven believe they need to carry out the punishment themselves to atone for their sins so it's possible they don't want anyone else to interfere.

 

Well, all of that among other reasons of course.