Anti nids

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So with the new nids having been out for a while, I'm wondering what units people have found to be dangerous to the servants of the true gods, and which of our units are good against the chittering hoards?

[Brother Heinrich]

Haven't faced them yet. I've been hounding my buddy to get his started up again so I can get to grips with some bugs again.

[zyl-]

As a general blanket statement, the new nids codex is none too impressive.

[daboarder]

Obliterators and heldrakes tear us a new one, target priority synapse then burn the rest when it comes close. Sit your infantry in cover to make it extra painful for them once they finally get there.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I plan to unleash my daemon engines against my friend's Tyranids.

- 2 Forgefiends (one with 2xHades+ecto, might build the other the same)

- Maulerfiend

- Defiler

- Helbrute

Might have a heldrake if I can ignore the guilt of owning one.

[Kilofix]

Also, Noise Marines. Follow me here, if they use multi-wound heavies and hide Venomtropes behind to give cover - you could use that Salvo 3 with Ignores Cover.

 

Don't know if you want to use Daemons but Instant Death stuff like Balesword also helps.

[Fibonacci]

I played a game with a friend shortly after the codex came out.  He did not have a crone yet so I left the drake at home.  I didn't take anything even designed to wreak face. 

Unmarked sorc with jumppack and burning brand (cheesiest unit by far)

3 CMS squads, 2 with a flamer, one with missile launcher.  Power swords for the aspiring champs.

5 chosen with 4 plasmaguns

Forgefiend with hades cannons and ecto-plasma head

Allied Herald of Slaanesh with an exalted chariot

16 Daemonettes

 

I faced 30 hormagaunts, 30 termagaunsts,  8 warriors, 10 or 12  harpies, flying hive tyrant, broodlord, 3 carnafex and 3 other about the same size as the carnofex (I forget their names) with blast weapons.

 

I fired at the flyrant until I eventually forced it down, then finished it off with plasma.  The daemons went after the nid assault units and did great.  The chariot blew away one unit of gaunts right off and then it and the daemonettes slugged it out with the warriors, carnifexs and harpies for 4 solid turns.  In the end, the chariot survive with 1 HP and 8 daemontees remained to 1 carnifex and 2 warriors.  Volume of hits with Rending was key, but I think if you spent the same points on Karn and some beserkers you would get a similar result.

 

I faced a horde with a few big bugs.  I had units that could generate a ton of hits and also had a few plasma guns.  It wasn't a roflstomp but I had the advantage in ever battle for the whole game.  Blast weapons at BS 3 scatter so bad the only good hit he got was a lucky scatter onto another unit.

[Brovius]

Obliterators and heldrakes tear us a new one, target priority synapse then burn the rest when it comes close. Sit your infantry in cover to make it extra painful for them once they finally get there.

 

Pretty much this. Once all the synapse creatures are gone (Which isn't too hard when there's only 2 models in the whole army with invulnerable saves, one of which is a special character and only applies in close combat) the Tyranids quite literally eat themselves or run away.

 

New Instincive Behaviour is absolutely crippling to the bugs and the only saving graces of the whole codex are Flyrants, Exocrines, Crones and Venomthropes (unless you're playing against Tau or an army with access to Divination). Carnifexes are ok but are still overcosted compared to Wraithlords, NDKs and most other races' MCs who either have or have an option for an invulnerable save, higher toughness, and have more than WS3.

[totgeboren]

I faced a mixed list, Tyrant with guard, zoan, venom, 2x Carnifexes, Tyrannofex, biovores, hive guard, 2x squads of warriors, 2x20 hormies, and I think 2x20 termies. I think that was all.

 

I used a really odd list consisting of Typhus leading 5 unmarked termies with plasma and a h.flamer (these guys deep struck). Then Khârn leading 30 cultists, then 30 zombies, 10 PM with melta, 10 CSM with plasma, a Forgefiend and a Maulerfiend. Oh, the marines had rhinos.

 

So none of the lists were optimal in any way, but I did learn a few things. Fist off, the Hades Forgefiend is incredibly useful. I easily kills middle bugs, have enough firepower to kill small ones, and enough S to kill the big ones. I didn't bring any blasts which was a pain. Oh if I had some NM, Ignore Cover is something really useful vs nids.

 

Rhinos are also pretty good just for taking out spore mines. Gargoyles are almost broken for the points. Their Blinding venom means you are more or less auto-blinded in cc with them, making them incredibly resilient. Biovores are really good for the points, as are Hive Guard. Carnifexes are not all that scary, unless they manage to assault you.

 

But all in all, Nids are pretty weak. Their heavy hitters just don't hit hard enough, and their horde isn't hordy enough. Sure, I lost the game, but only because Khârn killed my Maulerfiend who was about to kill a Carnifex, and then the Carnifex killed Khârn.

 

To be honest, with the sort of disjointed army I brought to the game, against his pretty fluffy army I think I should have gotten beaten up much worse. they just didn't feel all that scary.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I see, what is there ranged anti tank like? I'm thinking predators with autocannon turret and lascannon turrets may be good for taking out the bigger things, with either a vindicator or Obliterators acting to either frther target the big things or using blast/multie shot weapons on the smalll bugs.
How did the Terminators fare? i was thinking I'd need a close combat unit, and I have terminators or raptors, and whilst I imagine the reaper may be goodagainst big/medium bugs, the heavy flamer's overwatch and anti hoarde abilities must make it the go to heavy weapon on them if you are using them as a counter attack unit.

[Lord Abyssous]

faced a buttload of nids last week, ended up in a tie. I had lots of firepower (dakkapred, oblits) and three 10-man marine squads shooting. A small squad of bikers with two flamers was also immensely helpful, as was the heldrake.

[Excessus]

I'm always struggling against MCs...always...

 

I can't figure out the reason why though, and it annoys me!

[the jeske]

That kind of a depends on points and build and if escalation/stronghold is in or out .

 

There will either be wave builds wit 90+guants or 60 guant builds with more MCs. The rest is problematic . Hive tyrants are the best tyrants kill wise , but they are also the ones who die fastest and nids synaps is comperable to oldcrons phaseout now . So if esca/strong are out there is a chance to  see foot tyrants.

Mc lists will run 2 tyrants , 2 tervigons and 2 mawlocks at 1500. crones, torrentofexys are all a possible option to see in those builds.

There is going to be a lot of bubble wraping in all types of nids lists  , with one difference from the crudd dex that tervigons are going to be kept away from the guants . Expect to either see them guard home objectives or be the vanguard . oddly enough the swarm lists are going to be runing fewer tervigons and invest in to more crones/biovores maybe a dual mawlack+torrentofex hvy section .

 

 

 

What problems for chaos .MCs even the swarm lists are going to be runing multiples , oddly enough if they aren't synaps and/or your not sure you can finish them in one turn it is not always going to be worth trying to kill them . Shoting .Everything in the nid army shots , guants shot , tyrants shot , mawlocks are an Xpts template , torrentofexs shot, carnifexs shot .This means that our t3 no armor save troops are going to be dieing realy fast . Armies that run 3x10 cultists as their only troops may struggle against nids , not because nids table them ,but because they may find themselfs without troops end of turn 2. oddly enough csm point for point are not that much resilient . bikers and nurgle dudes on the other hand are , but one aren't always scoring and the other are not take as offten .

 

Another problem that may come up is the FMC. chaos has some serious problems with forcing grounding tests [autoguns are short range and you don't want to take your cultists anywhere near the nid army , because of the heavy shoting] ] , woe to the people who do not run multiple drakes .On the other hand nid FMC do struggle against armies with good AA or those that have the multi shoting range options to ground them. So in a few months god knows what the world is going to play at X points.

 

Expect lot of wierd stuff depending on points and local meta . Congas to venoms are going to there . hiding venoms in a big ass stronghold to spread the cover to many units , may be seen . Tervigons baby sitting a battery of biovores [nasty against chaos players , beware if your local meta has people shift their builds every game] . We sadly lack the ability to BB good anti cover unit , but Imo there is going to be an influx of tau+zombi builds and a shift to more demon armies , then csm ones being played.

 

As for how to deal with them . It is the same as with necrons. Doesn't matter how deadly or tough a monolith is , the army loses if it gets phased out. nids ,unless they pre build a lack of synaps immune list , die if they lose synaps. Sometimes you will have to do stupid looking stuff. Killing a single zoanthrope with a squad of dudes , instead of trying to kill a 30 man swarm that is scoring near objectives . Tau and eldar are going to be brutal for nids , if played well . An initial turn of cover ignoring fire with re-rolls can make half of their army not work on turn 1.CSM are not as good , but we can try . We have helldrakes , we can start to run some bigger squads or pms and try to force more grounding checks . Demon armies can finaly switch to using more horrors[if they weren't yet].

Dogs are going to be a blessing , because if they get turn one , they can hunt those synaps or force nids to castel up even more [being 2 wounds they don't die as fast] and effecticly cut the nid army in to two sections [that is if they try to move their FMC without support].

 

In general the closer to 1500 you play the weaker the nid get , the closer to 2k and double FoC the better for nids.

[Spacefrisian]

Ally with Imperial guard and see if you can squeeze in a 3 tank strong Leman Russ Eradicator unit, a wall of armour 14 and 3 large blasts that ignore cover make any swarms list rethink if they actually wanna go straight for you. "BLAMBLAMBLAM!", you have 3 big holes in your swarm.

 

Be'Lakor also does nicely, removing fearless and than making them run away it does the trick very nicely eg LD 5 Gaunts tend to run from him.

 

And 3x30 cultists as your own troops are dirt cheap anyway, heck you might even outswarm him if you want. Bring Typhus and you can have them keep that pesky Flyrant busy as well (although some nid players will try to avoid that).

[Kilofix]

The problem with things like Las Predators, Oblits and Eradicators vs large bugs is that they put out too few shots. Large bugs can have like 6 wounds, Invulnerable Saves and their version of It Will Not Die. The only time you would use such would be if they really have very few and exposed Synapse models.

 

I would still prefer Noise Marines, Daemonettes, Predators with AC+HBs, Chosen with all Flamer (yeah, let the little Nids try to assault you), DPs with Instant Death, Cultist blobs (to tarpit stuff).

 

And if you know they are going to have flying stuff - get a Firestorm Redoubt instead of wasting shots from the rest of your units. It is worth every point.

[daboarder]

Honestly with all the mid strength low AP firepower we can put out MC's should never be a problem for chaos. You also won't see much poison in nid lists anymore (its way to pricey on things now) so MoN is going to punish them something severe. Don't be afraid to be agressive with your unit's, move up into cover and even stealers will just bounce ooff your units.

 

Honestly the only thing in the nid codex that would give a solid chaos list any trouble is the flyrants, but our heldrakes have pretty decent chances of mincing those. The exocrine is decent but at 5 wounds and 24" range, if it moves up to range its BS3 and should just get burned next turn if not ignored in favour of the synapse.

 

edit: Watch out for adgland gargoyles, those things are absolute lightning charging reliably 19 or more a turn.

[Brovius]

The problem with things like Las Predators, Oblits and Eradicators vs large bugs is that they put out too few shots. Large bugs can have like 6 wounds, Invulnerable Saves and their version of It Will Not Die. The only time you would use such would be if they really have very few and exposed Synapse models.

 

I would still prefer Noise Marines, Daemonettes, Predators with AC+HBs, Chosen with all Flamer (yeah, let the little Nids try to assault you), DPs with Instant Death, Cultist blobs (to tarpit stuff).

 

And if you know they are going to have flying stuff - get a Firestorm Redoubt instead of wasting shots from the rest of your units. It is worth every point.

 

Wrong; Tyranids have 3 units in the whole codex with an invulnerable save, Zoanthropes (3++) and the Swarmlord (4++ in close combat only).

 

Tyranids will almost always have flying stuff, as Flyrant/Crone spam is kinda the only way for them to be marginally competitive, just like how they needed at least 2 troop-choice Tervigons in every list with the last codex. Anti-air is always a good investment against new 'Nids.

 

 

Honestly with all the mid strength low AP firepower we can put out MC's should never be a problem for chaos. You also won't see much poison in nid lists anymore (its way to pricey on things now) so MoN is going to punish them something severe. Don't be afraid to be agressive with your unit's, move up into cover and even stealers will just bounce ooff your units.

 

Honestly the only thing in the nid codex that would give a solid chaos list any trouble is the flyrants, but our heldrakes have pretty decent chances of mincing those. The exocrine is decent but at 5 wounds and 24" range, if it moves up to range its BS3 and should just get burned next turn if not ignored in favour of the synapse.

 

edit: Watch out for adgland gargoyles, those things are absolute lightning charging reliably 19 or more a turn.

Tyranid players have already discovered a work-around to the Exocrine. It's only BS3 if it moves in the movement phase, so if they use Onslaught on it, Exocrines can move d6" per turn and still fire at BS4.

[daboarder]

as  nid player, D6 move...yeah thats terrible you just need to accept that the exo is firing subpar on the turn it moves, it sucks a little but hey they don't get nice things either.

[Deadman Wade]

I've played against new nids only once, and it was quite easy battle. My opponent had flying tyrant, Swarmlord with two guards, two flying monsters (crones, I think he called them), two monsters with super plasma guns, two big squads of gants, squad of warriors and venomthropes. I'm not sure if this is a good list or not, but I wasn't impressed with those new tyranids units, 3+ saves for walking MCs is quite bad, especially since they aren't that good in close combat. I didn't even need to soften them up before charging, and all my shooting was against his flyers to cause grounding tests

[daboarder]

sounds like he was running one of the more promising nid lists to be honest.

[Brovius]

I've played against new nids only once, and it was quite easy battle. My opponent had flying tyrant, Swarmlord with two guards, two flying monsters (crones, I think he called them), two monsters with super plasma guns, two big squads of gants, squad of warriors and venomthropes. I'm not sure if this is a good list or not, but I wasn't impressed with those new tyranids units, 3+ saves for walking MCs is quite bad, especially since they aren't that good in close combat. I didn't even need to soften them up before charging, and all my shooting was against his flyers to cause grounding tests

That's the main crippling thing with Tyranid MCs. Other armies get cheaper, better and more survivable MCs quite easily (Like Wraithlords, NDK, Daemon Princes etc) that usually have, or have an option for invulnerable saves which are worth their weight in gold given that almost every army has several options to ignore cover, whether that be via Markerlights or allying with Divination psykers.

 

As a Tyranid player, I find that I really have to work for my victories in this codex. I just barely won against an Eldar player (it was his first game since 4th edition, and he had a very sub-par list featuring a squad of Harlequins and that Wraithlock flyer) thanks to the sheer amount of AP3 or better firepower and volume of bullets being thrown at my 3 flying MCs in a 1500 point game.

 

 

sounds like he was running one of the more promising nid lists to be honest.

Pretty much. Flying MC spam with a few Exocrines and Venomthropes is actually the go-to list to be competitive because it makes use of all the units that are good/got better in this codex. Carnifexes are ok, but are still over-costed compared to the MCs available to the other races.

[daboarder]

Eh the crones are a bit questionable really, but other than those.

[Brovius]

Eh the crones are a bit questionable really, but other than those.

Really? I think Crones are great. For some reason the rest of the Tyranid community prefers Harpies which makes no sense to me as they are entirely anti-infantry in an army that is already loaded with ways to deal with enemy infantry (Tarpitting gaunts, Dakkafexes, T-Fexes, Warriors, Biovores, Exocrines etc.).

Crones have the advantage of Vector Strikes to hurt vehicles, flyers and instagib things like Crisis suits at AP3. Tentaclids are alright, although BS3 makes them suffer against ground targets. Haywire more than makes up for it though, you're nearly guaranteed a hull point for each one that hits.

[daboarder]

T5 5w 4+......quad gun bait. its not particularly offensive either beyond its vector strike.

 

Remember if it vector strikes it can only shoot 1 weapon in the shooting phase.

[Deadman Wade]

In my game I inflicted 4 wounds to one crone with quad gun interceptor shots, it managed to glance my Storm Eagle twice with vector strike though, I was worried about their vector strike being S8, but I got lucky and my Eagle survived. They look very vulnerable to autocannons and even heavy bolters with only T5 and 4+ save.