startrecker Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Here is hoping this is the right place to ask this. So as anyone can tell from my post count I am new here and new to 40k in general. Lately I have been getting my tail handed to my Ultramarines by Eldar. Oddly enough it isn't the wave serpent or the seer council but rather the fire prism. I have a friend who runs two and I know they shouldn't be that hard to deal with so sorry if this is a stupid question but can anyone give me some tips on how to handle these things? We play at 1850, I don't really have a set army list yet so I was more hoping for some general advice as to what units are a good counter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Sternguard in drop pod with Meltas, orbital bombardment, Stormtalon/Raven with TL Las/Melta... Do they have the same rule that reduces pens to glances when shooting at them from the front? If so dropping a drop pod with Melta stern behind them is the most effective means to deal with them... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3586186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bystrom Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I use a deep-striking land speeder with two multi-melta. The difficulties with dealing with the fire prism are: its great range, much greater than 48" its 4+ cover save its AV12 on both the front and sides (so no vulnerable side armour) its speed Since it has such a great range and speed, its going to be difficult to get in close to it, especially since the rest of the army probably shields it. In addition, it has a 4+ cover save, so you generally want lots of S7+ shots against it, or want to get into close combat with it (not very likely). So, deep strike is a good option, as are fast units. What do the fire prisms target? You can try and hug cover to reduce the damage they do. @Ishagu - fire prisms don't have serpent shields Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3586227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
startrecker Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Thanks for the tips I will try deepstrike/pods next time. I had a trilaser pred with me but thier lance weapon mode made short work of that then it was templates all the way on all my squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3586414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Void Generators and Void Relay Networks are amazing against low volume high power shots like Fire Prism or Bright Lances. They will crumble under Wave Serpent shots though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3586779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Here is hoping this is the right place to ask this. So as anyone can tell from my post count I am new here and new to 40k in general. Lately I have been getting my tail handed to my Ultramarines by Eldar. Oddly enough it isn't the wave serpent or the seer council but rather the fire prism. I have a friend who runs two and I know they shouldn't be that hard to deal with so sorry if this is a stupid question but can anyone give me some tips on how to handle these things? We play at 1850, I don't really have a set army list yet so I was more hoping for some general advice as to what units are a good counter. Welcome. Which models do you own? The advice you where given is good - and I agree with everything the other guys said. I would like to help you deal with those with the models you perhaps already own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3587338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
startrecker Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 I am actually incredably new to 40k garath. I only own a unit of tactical marines, a storm talon, and a storm raven (because I love the storm raven model). So far I have been using models from my fantasy armies in games with friends as counts as untill I figure out which models I like to use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3587383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 welcome to playing marine, and since everyone and their grandmothers dog is playing eldar or tau you have to be able to kill av 12 vehicles with a 4+ cover save reliably or just lose. In use 2 pods of sternguard, with 8 combi meltas 2 melta guns and 4 combi plasmas, I can usually get rear armor on some vehicle or turn 1 just land next to them (since they didnt move no cover save) and glance em out. you need either podded melta turn 1, or you need massive firebases such as 3 quad lascannon dev squads with extra bodies to soak wounds (or rapider batteries but your now so forge world is prob best left out for now) My best list run no vehicles since they are a liability and having a ironclad be 1 shot or imobalized by a lone at weapon ruins you day. And not trying to self promote I do battle reports and most of the people I fight are eldar so it may help to look it over. And feel free to ask any questions, we are a comunity and us marine players have to stand together to defeat the xenos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3587901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azash Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 You can also try to use your talon for rear armor shots. Grav cents will rip them apart easily. As others have stated if you want to take them on turn one your looking at drop pods. A crafty eldar player will see this coming and either deploy a cushion around there prisms or hold them in reserve and force you to drop with no prism on the table. Against eldar I have always found that volume of fire on an army wide scale and persistence pays dividends. If you stock your army with as much str 8 and 9 weapons as possible and focus them on specific targets. Also never hurts to take tigarius you can always get ignore cover as one of your powers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3587913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 azash I run a pod heavy list and obliterate almost all eldar armies in my way, if they reserve too much I can just table them or hurt them so hard that the reserves arnt enough to to anything Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3587955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 You can also try to use your talon for rear armor shots. Grav cents will rip them apart easily. Also never hurts to take tigarius you can always get ignore cover as one of your powers. Talons and Grav cannon Centurions are awesome. Please note that grav weapons don actually cause glancing or penetrating hits and therefore, no cover saves apply against them. On the other hand, ignores cover special rule granted by "Perfect timing" psychic power actually let's the unit ignore cover saves from wounds- and as such it's an open debate if vechicles are effected by it. There's a strong indication that they aren't... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3587963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I am actually incredably new to 40k garath. I only own a unit of tactical marines, a storm talon, and a storm raven (because I love the storm raven model). So far I have been using models from my fantasy armies in games with friends as counts as untill I figure out which models I like to use. Cool. The doctor's orders are as follows: 1. Pick a chapter you like 2. Buys another tactical squad 3, Read the big rulebook 4. Play a series of at least 10-15 games ,at 500 pts level 5. Read the rulebook again Also, Fronline gaming has wonderful tactical advice videos that show exactly what 6th is, on a tactical level. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3587972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
netminder69 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 FYI, if you look up Fromtline Gaming on You Tube, you actually want to search for Team0Comp. The one actually named Frontline Gaming is all video games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3588083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
krustydave Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Had a 1750 point win against eldar with my UMs the other day. I took LOTS of boddies....he just couldnt kill enough to deny me the game. Played Emperors Will and I won it 5-4. Seems to me that as an UM player u need to leverage your advantage wich is your chapter traits. This therefore means at LEAST 30 tactical marines with the humble bolter. My list is an all comers balanced one so no POWAH! tactics or choices taken. At 1850 I'd add either another thunderfire cannon or a dakka predator. The list was.... HQ -Tigurius ELITE- 5 Legion of the Damned, M-Melta, C-Melta, Meltagun ( I.m.o. better than sternguard for dropping in and killing skimmers as they ignore cover, are SnP therefore can fire full BS heavy weapon, stand a chance of surviving the reprisal, dont come down turn 1 and re-roll to come in coz of tigurius, re-roll scatter and are slightly cheaper! and are not just 1 shot wonders) TROOPS 10 Outflanking Boltgun Scouts, Storm Bolter and MeltaBombs on SGT (Cheap, decent in a fight and nobody expects it. Makes a mess of guardians, fire warriors or any other squishy troops and is FLUFFY) 10 Tacticals with Rhino - Plasmagun + Combi-Plasma 10 Tacticals with Rhino - Plasmagun + Combi-Plasma 10 Tacticals with Rhino - Meltagun + Meltabombs. (BP+Chainsword Sgt) (All combat squadded in the rhinos to force overkill) HEAVY Thunderfire Cannon 10 man Devastator Squad - 4 plasma cannons (combat squadded 2 and 2) FAST 5 man Assault Squad - Jump Packs removed, 2 flamers, In Drop Pod (These guys won me the game, got me 1st blood from frazzling a squad of 5 rangers in cover...useful all round really) Storm Talon with Skyhammer missiles 5 Bikes (2 x Gravguns, Combi-Grav) + attack bike with Multi-Melta =1750 pts Its a BASIC list that uses the chapter traits, has NO shenanigans that are gonna cost u friends, is efficient, has lots of dudes and is fun to play. I feel it would be a good start point if you plan to stay with Ultramarines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3588810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Two Helldrakes would wipe out the above list in 2 turns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3588901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Two Helldrakes would wipe out the above list in 2 turns. Not if SM combat squad- that's 12 targets in infantry only. 2 helldrakes can almost be ignored. Plus by the time they get from reserve... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Agreed, it's more than a little hyperbolic to suggest that two models can destroy an entire 1750pts army in as many turns! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'm sure Isagu didn't mean literally the whole army - his comment was probbably aimed at the fact that Helldrakes can dextroy 2 targets a turn each- and tend to break whole formations up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I didn't mean that you will literally suffer 1750 points worth of losses in two turns from two Heldrakes - however you will certainly lose the game. Marine Infantry lists really suffer against things like the Drake. They WILL burn two squads off objectives per turn, and they WILL vector strike things on the way including the single Talon, and all of their attacks WILL ignore cover. Hate to burst the bubble guys, but you need to round the list off with sufficiently powerful weapons, AA and things that don't suffer as much to AP3 and Strength 7... My 1750 list would look like so: -Chief Librarian Tigarius -Tac Squad, ML, Plasma Gun, Rhino -Tac Squad, ML, Plasma Gun -Scout Squad, Telion, 4 Snipers, ML, Camo Cloaks -Sternguard, 4 Combi Meltas, Drop Pod -3 Grav Centurions, Land Raider -Storm Raven, MM, TL Las Cannon, Hurricane Bolters -Storm Talon, TL Las Cannon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Garath and Warriorfish, telling a new player that hell drakes are ignorable is one of the most dangerous pieces of advice I have read to date. It about as bad as telling him that footslogging marines vs 9 bassys is a great idea. I feel you need more anti air, maybe some stalkers or hunters would work or a aegis with a quad gun. I use hyperios platforms for my anti air, 35 points for a bs 3 t6 2 wound platform with a tl krak missile (interceptor and skyfire) yes please Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Garath and Warriorfish, telling a new player that hell drakes are ignorable is one of the most dangerous pieces of advice I have read to date. It about as bad as telling him that footslogging marines vs 9 bassys is a great idea. I feel you need more anti air, maybe some stalkers or hunters would work or a aegis with a quad gun. I use hyperios platforms for my anti air, 35 points for a bs 3 t6 2 wound platform with a tl krak missile (interceptor and skyfire) yes please I said "amoast ignored". And that was in the contex of that specific list. They are a pain ,a model that can destroy 2 targets a turn. I know the drill. Hyperios platforms are good. On the side note, the original OP question was aimed at beastin Eldar. How did we get to Heldrakes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I always believe in advising players on making a well rounded list... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 When considering Heldrakes, I always find it best to simply look at the worst and best case possible scenarios, and assume that whatever happens will fall in between. At worst, a Heldrake will deal full Vector Strike hits to a squad, or open up the transport. Then it will flame a different squad for however many units you clumped up under the template. At best (for you), a Heldrake MAY NOT SHOW UP TIL TURN 4, rolls low on Vector Strikes, you've spaced your men perfectly so the template can hit at max 4-6 (I forget what's the maximum number of 2" coherency models you can hit with a flamer), or he even rolls poorly on to hit/wound and does nothing. Or you intercept it out of the sky. If you're playing 3+ or worse armor with poor or no invulnerable save, expect to take at least a 1-3 per pass of the Heldrake. Maybe if something crazy happens like they Vector Strike and do a 360 moonwalking noscope headshot with their torrent flamer to wipe out an entire squad, or pop a Rhino with Vector and flame a different/same squad, but don't count on that being 100%. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I use a deep-striking land speeder with two multi-melta. The difficulties with dealing with the fire prism are: its great range, much greater than 48" its 4+ cover save its AV12 on both the front and sides (so no vulnerable side armour) its speed Since it has such a great range and speed, its going to be difficult to get in close to it, especially since the rest of the army probably shields it. In addition, it has a 4+ cover save, so you generally want lots of S7+ shots against it, or want to get into close combat with it (not very likely). So, deep strike is a good option, as are fast units. What do the fire prisms target? You can try and hug cover to reduce the damage they do. @Ishagu - fire prisms don't have serpent shields Im new to speeders and such. How does it gain a cover save? By jink or something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Moving speeders automatically gain a 5+ cover save -- the aforementioned Jink -- and Eldar grav tanks can take holofield which add an extra +1 to that cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286448-tactics-question-from-a-new-marine/#findComment-3589957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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