Qin Xa

[reckoning]

Im probably biased (and uneducated to those two situations having not read the books), but they both sound absurd.

[b1soul]

And with that, from what I remember from Scars, Qin Xa's kill tally is mentioned as being unsurpassed by any other member of the White Scars Legion, so in terms of the White Scars, he's probably their best.

 

Erm...I believe it's clearly stated that Yesugai is the main man (below the Khan of course). No one has slain more than the chief stormseer...and I'd believe it. The way he rag-dolls hostile marines and fries them with lightning.

 

If we're not counting stormseers, I believe Qin Xa would one of the best. I say one of the best because in Savage Weapons, Jubal Khan is mentioned and Qin Xa is not.   

 

 

In one of the Space Marine battles novels a Marine is chasing a human through a tunnel, there's a rockslide, the Marine is trapped under the rocks and the human comes back and executes him.

 

Siege of Castellax eh? I hope it wasn't unintentionally hilarious 

 

 

That's nothing.

 

In the short story "Words of Blood" by Ben Counter, a mob of Traitor Guard dogpile fully armed and armored Black Templar Assault Marines and beat them to death with rocks.

 

How about GK being dog-piled by a Medieval-level mob?

 

Also by Ben Counter

[Conn Eremon]

Yesugei seems like the main man below the Primarch as far as rank goes, and his psyker abilities certainly gives him an edge in combat, but as far as the best warrior of the White Scars goes, it sounds like Qin Xa takes that spotlight.

[Scribe]

There shouldn't be any list, it's pointless. There are too many factors, and even then most of them are too equal for us to say "Yep, they'd win every time".

 

In one of the Space Marine battles novels a Marine is chasing a human through a tunnel, there's a rockslide, the Marine is trapped under the rocks and the human comes back and executes him.

 

Hah, slowly too, as the SM (Iron Warrior actually) heals almost faster than the dude can kill him!

[b1soul]

his psyker abilities certainly gives him an edge in combat, but as far as the best warrior of the White Scars goes, it sounds like Qin Xa takes that spotlight.

 

I would call it more than an edge...and it's stated that Yesugai has the most kills 

 

Qin Xa would likely school him in a blade fight though 

[Conn Eremon]

I wasn't belittling Yesugei's abilities. The 'edge' was meant as in 'an edge over Qin Xa.'

 

Just like Yesugei's psyker talents might give him an edge over Sigismund. But, Sigismund would nonetheless be classified as the better warrior or fighter. Psyker talents are almost like artillerymen or orbital bombardiers. It requires talent and skill to be good at it, and its use in war is beyond reproach, but it by itself does not make the person comparable to those like this discussion is about, in spite of the higher kill tallies these soldiers might have. Likewise, it doesn't mean that these soldiers are inferior, just of a different class that can't be compared to the other without perspective skewing it heavily in favor of one over the other.

[mc warhammer]

the "xa" is pronounced "sha" but with a very light "h"...to get an idea, say it through a smile. interesting, as the name seems Chinese but the legion are based on Mongols.

[Conn Eremon]

 

the "xa" is pronounced "sha" but with a very light "h"...to get an idea, say it through a smile. interesting, as the name seems Chinese but the legion are based on Mongols.

But the world they are based on was mostly Space Chinese. The Space Mongolian minorities had a Primarch on their side and won in spite of being heavily outnumbered.

[mc warhammer]

right. still a bit...convenient those two cultures ended up on the same planet. bit like a world full of space brits with a contingent of space spaniards too. correct me if i'm wrong but most 30k worlds seem mono- cultural. ie: fenris is norse/viking. they don't seem to have much variety amongst themselves.

[Conn Eremon]

Chogoris is pretty much mono-cultural in focus. Space Mongolians. But the Space Mongolians kind of needed the Space Chinese there, for who else would their reborn demi-god Genghis Khan lead them in glorious conquest against?

 

And then everybody became solely Space Mongolians for the next ten thousand years.

[depthcharge12]

The Space Marines never discriminate. There's only light green and dark green. ;)

[b1soul]

I wasn't belittling Yesugei's abilities. The 'edge' was meant as in 'an edge over Qin Xa.'

 

Just like Yesugei's psyker talents might give him an edge over Sigismund. But, Sigismund would nonetheless be classified as the better warrior or fighter. Psyker talents are almost like artillerymen or orbital bombardiers. It requires talent and skill to be good at it, and its use in war is beyond reproach, but it by itself does not make the person comparable to those like this discussion is about, in spite of the higher kill tallies these soldiers might have. Likewise, it doesn't mean that these soldiers are inferior, just of a different class that can't be compared to the other without perspective skewing it heavily in favor of one over the other.

 

In a 1 on 1 arena battle scenario, I'd always favour a powerful librarian over a powerful warrior 

 

Psyker powers (telekinesis, warp lightning, combat precog etc.) would be OP in a duel 

 

The above is simply my opinion but I think it makes sense 

 

As for Qin Xa's name. I recall that the White Scars don't just recall from the nomad tribes. They recruit from the entire Chogorian population, which would include the Chogorian "Chinese" population

 

Qin Xa definitely sounds more Chinese than Mongolian 

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

I wasn't belittling Yesugei's abilities. The 'edge' was meant as in 'an edge over Qin Xa.'

 

Just like Yesugei's psyker talents might give him an edge over Sigismund. But, Sigismund would nonetheless be classified as the better warrior or fighter. Psyker talents are almost like artillerymen or orbital bombardiers. It requires talent and skill to be good at it, and its use in war is beyond reproach, but it by itself does not make the person comparable to those like this discussion is about, in spite of the higher kill tallies these soldiers might have. Likewise, it doesn't mean that these soldiers are inferior, just of a different class that can't be compared to the other without perspective skewing it heavily in favor of one over the other.

In a 1 on 1 arena battle scenario, I'd always favour a powerful librarian over a powerful warrior

 

Psyker powers (telekinesis, warp lightning, combat precog etc.) would be OP in a duel

 

The above is simply my opinion but I think it makes sense

 

As for Qin Xa's name. I recall that the White Scars don't just recall from the nomad tribes. They recruit from the entire Chogorian population, which would include the Chogorian "Chinese" population

 

Qin Xa definitely sounds more Chinese than Mongolian

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that I would categorize them to be more like artillerymen and bombardiers than warriors like Sigismund or Qin Xa. Doesn't belittle them. Just recognizes their differences.

[b1soul]

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that I would categorize them to be more like artillerymen and bombardiers than warriors like Sigismund or Qin Xa. Doesn't belittle them. Just recognizes their differences.

 

Sure...or to use a more cliched distinction, it's like comparing a fighter to a mage 

 

Though Nykona Sharrowkyn might qualify as a rogue/assassin :P

[Greyall]

I figure this comes out of a necessity of making narratives compelling, but there seem to be few accounts of skillful loyalists being, well, skillful. Raldoron, Corswain, Loken, Khârn, they often seem to go on the defensive when fighting other Astartes and end up improvising. Of course, a real fight isn't a pretty business, but some superiority being shown would be nice. Then again, I can understand how no one wants to write about what could be viewed as a Mary Sue...

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

 Then again, I can understand how no one wants to write about what could be viewed as a Mary Sue...

 

*cough*NEMESIS*cough*

[Greyall]

Lol, which of the assassins do you mean? Or are you referring to the black pariah?

[mc warhammer]

is loken that skilled? i figured he was above average but no lucius or erebus in pure martial skill. he might outfight them in other ways but not in a straight up "duel" as such

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Then again, I can understand how no one wants to write about what could be viewed as a Mary Sue...

*cough*NEMESIS*cough*

Nemesis? Have you not read the glory and grandeur of Angel Exterminatus?

[Greyall]

Loken is indeed more of a combat pragmatist, I think, but as someone said before he does put on a skill-fest against Abaddon, who's only saved by being clad in castlewall-armour.

 

I guess it might be due more to 'war-through-fiction' syndrome, not all good blademasters fight in a coreographed way, that's probably reserved for Fulgrim, he managed to make beautiful bladework deadly.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Lol, which of the assassins do you mean? Or are you referring to the black pariah?

 

The black pariah. There's some basic fundamentals of storytelling that I've seen novelists and screen writers miss completely, and one of them is simply not to stab your readers in the back.

 

 

"Spear" is such a ridiculous Mary Sue that it beggars belief. I know that authors want to make their villain cool and a bad ass, but reducing the protagonists to a bunch of weaklings who can't seem do any real harm to the antagonists and then get torn apart in gleeful, gory detail is a betrayal of the worst kind.

 

 

 

 

 

Then again, I can understand how no one wants to write about what could be viewed as a Mary Sue...

*cough*NEMESIS*cough*

Nemesis? Have you not read the glory and grandeur of Angel Exterminatus?

 

Yes. This is how I felt after I slogged through the last half and finally finished it:

 

http://i.imgur.com/pEtUgVs.gif

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Lol, which of the assassins do you mean? Or are you referring to the black pariah?

 

The black pariah. There's some basic fundamentals of storytelling that I've seen novelists and screen writers miss completely, and one of them is simply not to stab your readers in the back.

 

 

"Spear" is such a ridiculous Mary Sue that it beggars belief. I know that authors want to make their villain cool and a bad ass, but reducing the protagonists to a bunch of weaklings who can't seem do any real harm to the antagonists and then get torn apart in gleeful, gory detail is a betrayal of the worst kind.

 

 

But it is a rather common method of storytelling. Pretty much every season of Supernatural(Especially Bobby), the Doctor Strange animated movie, Predators(the one with Laurence Fishburne), Aliens and more than a few comics, anime and manga. Everyone either gets taken out or beaten down and then you get "the final showdown" where the hero gets his rear handed to him, then he catches his second wind and everyone cheers as his plot armor triumphs.

[Wade Garrett]

Loken is indeed more of a combat pragmatist, I think, but as someone said before he does put on a skill-fest against Abaddon, who's only saved by being clad in castlewall-armour.

 

To paraphrase Barristan Selmy, "This big goof who only wins because he has castle wall armor is about to kill you, ser."

 

Loken knew very well that Abaddon was going to bring Tactical Dreadnaught Armor to the Mournival fight, that he failed to equip himself with either weapons capable of damaging it or TDA of his own is HIS failing, not Abby's.

 

Of course, Loken did suit up in the far more protective Plot Armor, so maybe he did think a little bit ahead.

[Greyall]

True that, yet Abaddon seemed to make the fine mistake of not wearing a helmet, too, but that's an issue once you ascend in rank as a Space Marine. I imagine their Sergeant graduation ceremonies have them all throwing their helmets...away.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

But it is a rather common method of storytelling. Pretty much every season of Supernatural(Especially Bobby), the Doctor Strange animated movie, Predators(the one with Laurence Fishburne), Aliens and more than a few comics, anime and manga. Everyone either gets taken out or beaten down and then you get "the final showdown" where the hero gets his rear handed to him, then he catches his second wind and everyone cheers as his plot armor triumphs.

 

There's a difference.

 

I'll give you a few examples from the Lord of the Rings books versus the movies, but first a disclaimer: I've read the books, but Jesus Light didn't explode out of the pages for me like it does for so many other people and it was frequently so boring and dry that it would take me days or weeks to finish a chapter. A lot of these fans, one of my best friends among them, were upset at some of the changes PJ made in the movies, but if you listen to the commentary, he explains in detail why he made them and politely calls Tolkien a mediocre writer for most them.

 

1) The all powerful One Ring.

 

None can resist its lure; not even the timeless elves or the demi-god-like Maiar are safe from it's seductive whispers of power. By chance, there was this one hobbit, though... this one brave, adventurous hobbit seemed inured to its evil and he was willing to sacrifice all for even the slightest chance of destroying it forever.

 

Not bad, right? It's the beginnings of an epic story that will change fiction forever.

 

Oh, but WAIT! OK, sorry, we were wrong. There was... you know, there was this other guy, right? This human. Faramir. You know him, I think? Brother to that Boromir guy? Yeah, he's also immune. No, seriously. I know, I know... we said NONE were safe from the One Ring save this one singular, unique, exceptional hobbit kid, but as it turns out, this Faramir guy kinda waves the ring away like "LOLNO" when Frodo tries to give it to him. So there's two people, mortals no less, living in the same time period and that just happen to cross paths that are completely immune to the all-consuming power of the ring. The ring that Gandalf and Galadriel didn't dare touch for fear that it would consume them.

 

Just two people. That we know of.

 

Maybe more if we went out and looked for them. *cough*

 

So, that's bad writing. Tolkien essentially disqualified the real power and fear of what the ring represented by having some other schmoe be completely immune to it. Which is why PJ changed it in the movie to keep the malicious power of the ring real.

 

2) Gollum.

 

From day one, this psychotic little ball of eyes and bad intentions is trying his best to drive a wedge between Sam and Frodo. He's doing a one-man show of Good Gollum/Bad Gollum at every opportunity, befriending Frodo and alienating Sam, for weeks and weeks and long, boring chapter after unceasingly boring chapter, and what comes of all of his effort? This protagonist that has spent every waking moment trying to split this duo apart?

 

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. There's no payoff for all of Gollum's effort and the thousands of wasted words spent carrying us up that big hill on the roller coaster ride, only to have it stall at the top.

 

Bad writing.

 

I don't want to type out paragraphs of spoilers, but you know what happened throughout most of Nemesis with the Mary Sue Demon Skin and then end where the assassins make their stand. Terrible. Dragged us all the way up that roller coaster hill, and not only did it stall, it left us up there all night in the rain.