Regarding Russ vs Jonson

[ZONKEY]

Hi,

 

I have a question regarding the lead up to Russ punching jonson in the face, Did Jonson leave russ' men to die whilst he went on to kill Dulan?

[securitas]

i would love to know myself

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

The story's been retold in different ways; sometimes, the only problem is that Russ wanted to kill Dulan but Jonson got there first, sometimes the Dark Angels redeploy without warning, leaving the Wolves' flank exposed. I don't think there's a definitive version.

[helterskelter]

It was nothing that bad Russ called dibs but jonson did the killing. Ensue punch up

[securitas]

just like typical brothers

[ZONKEY]

Cause i was just informed that Jonson left russ' men to die and i think thats a bit cold even for jonson

[Max_Dammit]

Its one version of the story.

 

there are many.

[MaveriK]

*ahem* cue Valerian our resident Rune Priest lore master.

[ZONKEY]

cause if jonson caused russ' men to die, jonson deserved a good kicking

[EPK]

Suppose we will find out a more definite answer - if they actually cover it in any detail - when the story is penned as part of the Horus Hersey. Or they may simply give a nod to it as having already happened to keep the fuzzy myth of alive. Maybe it didn't even happen as the tales tell.

 

The biased-DA side of me says Jonson is too much of a tactician to have done anything without careful consideration. Certainly if he did leave the Wolves flank open he had good reason. I've only heard the "got to the boss first even know Russ called dibs" story.

[Grotsmasha]

Time-wise, The Lion and The Wolf happened prior to at least BLs The Unremembered Empire, as the Honour Duel (it was hardly a duel though) was fought upon the Lion's arrival to Macragge. As for letting the Wolves die, there's been nothing to suggest that was the case, just that Jonson 'stole'

Russ' kill.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

One other aspect that iv heard was johnson scouted the citidels weakpoints personally and had devised a strategy to win. Russ ordered him to stand down as russ had been personally insulted by the tyrant but johnson ignored him.

If you take all the stories and play them together they all fit.

Johnson follows his plan and the wolves end up exposed.

Russ is banging on th wall as johnson kills tyrant.

Russ mad his boys are dead and johnson stole his kill.

 

How they match this up with BLs interpretation of Russ the cunning hunteri dont know.

[Valerian]

 

*ahem* cue Valerian our resident Rune Priest lore master.

As requested:
 

The Lion and the Wolf - Space Wolves Perspective

 

On the world of Dulan, the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels were to assault an enemy held fortress. Russ claimed the right to lead the attack, but 'Lion' El'Jonson, commander of the Dark Angels, refused and started the attack early. Russ was furious, and began a feud which was to continue for three centuries. The Emperor intervened to quell the fighting, and ordered that the disagreement be settled by a duel. Leman Russ faced his friend in combat and took a blade through the heart; the duel was declared a draw, and the normally fatal wound healed within weeks.

The Primarchs were to fight four more times before the death of El'Johnson. Friends to the end, they were united by shared rivalry and sense of honour. The feud would rise again, but not in Russ's lifetime.

-- White Dwarf 117

The relationship between the many Space Marine Chapters have not always been cordial despite their common loyalties to the Emperor and the Imperium. Ancient rivalries, territorial conflicts and all manner of other circumstances exist to create discord amongst them. Few rivalries are as deep-rooted or as well known as that between the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels.

According to legend, it was during the Horus Heresy that the two Chapters met for the first time. The history of the Dark Angels has nothing to tell of that Chapter's role in the Horus Heresy, for all records of its involvement were deliberately purged after the conflict. The Space Wolves maintain that it was Lion El'Jonson, Primarch of the Dark Angels, who began the feud with the Space Wolves. Supposedly the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were fighting alongside each other when, suddenly and without orders, El'Jonson broke ranks and led the Dark Angels into the attack. The Space Wolves found their flank unprotected, and many warriors were slain when the enemy counterattacked. More galling to the prideful Leman Russ was the fact that the Dark Angels swept all before them and easily won the battle.

After the conflict, hot-tempered and fearless, Russ stormed after El'Jonson and set about the Dark Angels leader. After a long and close fought battle the two Primarchs collapsed with exhaustion, each swearing vengeance upon the other. Thus began the long and bitter feud between the two Primarchs, which never really ended and which continues to this day, after a fashion. It is claimed that the two mighty Primarchs eventually became accustomed to these personal battles, growing to respect each other and even becoming great friends. However, their pride could never allow either of them to forget their vows of vengeance. Both felt honor-bound to try to kill the other on every occasion they met. Though terrible wounds were suffered by both, it was probably to their mutual relief that neither succeeded in slaying the other.

Since the passing of these two mighty Primarchs the Space Wolves and Dark Angels have grown even further apart. Though they have fought together since, and won many battles together, their mutual loyalties have done little to dispel their enmity. More than once they have fought each other, and suffered greatly as a result. Yet neither is prepared to forget the vows of vengeance made by their progenitors so many years ago.

--Second Edition Codex Space Wolves

The relationship between the many Space Marine Chapters have not always been cordial despite their common loyalties to the Emperor and the Imperium. Ancient rivalries, territorial conflicts and all manner of other circumstances exist to create discord amongst them. Few rivalries, however, are as deep-rooted or as well known as that between the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves.

The Space Wolves maintain that it was Lion El'Jonson, Primarch of the Dark Angels, who began the feud with the Space Wolves. Supposedly the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were fighting alongside each other when, suddenly and without orders, El'Jonson broke ranks and led the Dark Angels into the attack. The Space Wolves found their flank unprotected, and many warriors were slain when the enemy counterattacked. More galling to the proud Leman Russ was the fact that the Dark Angels swept all before them and easily won the battle.

After the conflict, hot-tempered and fearless, Russ stormed after El'Jonson and set about the Dark Angels leader. After a long and close fought battle the two Primarchs collapsed with exhaustion, each swearing vengeance upon the other. Thus began the long and bitter feud between the two Primarchs, which never really ended and which continues to this day, after a fashion. Though the two Chapters have fought alongside each other since, and won many battles together, their mutual loyalties have done little to dispel their enmity. More than once they have fought each other, and suffered greatly as a result. Yet neither is prepared to forget the vows of vengeance made by their progenitors so many years ago.

--White Dwarf 246

The relationships between the many Space Marine Chapters have not always been cordial despite their common loyalties to the Emperor and the Imperium. Ancient rivalries, territorial conflicts, and all manner of circumstances exist to create discord amongst them. Few rivalries are as deep-rooted or as well known as that between the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels.

According to legend, it was during the Horus Heresy that the two Chapters met for the first time. The Space Wolves maintain that it was Lion El'Jonson, Primarch of the Dark Angels, who began the feud with the Space Wolves. It was upon the world of Dulan where the two Chapters came to blows. It is said that the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were fighting alongside each other to depose the Tyrant Durath when, suddenly and without orders, El'Jonson broke ranks and led the Dark Angels into the attack against the Tyrant's fortress. The Space Wolves found their flank unprotected, and many warriors were slain when the enemy counterattacked. More galling to the prideful Leman Russ was the fact that the Dark Angels swept all before them and easily won the battle.

After the conflict, hot-tempered and fearless, Russ stormed after El'Jonson and set about the Dark Angels Primarch, fists flying and curses upon his lips. The two titanic warriors battled for a day and a night, each unable to overcome the other.

At last the pair broke apart, and Russ, seeing the humor in the situation, began to laugh - quietly at first, but soon with a fulsome roar of mirth. The Dark Angels Primarch looked upon Russ with disgust. He saw the Fenrisian King's first blow as treacherous, so he raised his fist and dealt the laughing Russ such a blow that he was rendered unconscious. Considering his hour to be satisfied, El' Jonson left the fortress and set off into space. Thus began the long and bitter feud between the two Primarchs, which never really ended and which continues to this day, after a fashion. It is claimed that the two Primarchs eventually became accustomed to these personal battles, growing to respect each other and becoming great friends.

Since the passing of these two mighty Primarchs the Space Wolves and Dark Angels have grown even further apart. Though they have fought together since, the ancient rivalry remains. So it is that every time the two Chapters meet, a champion from each Chapter is called upon to refight the ancient duel between the two Primarchs in order that honor and tradition be satisfied.

--Fifth Edition Codex Space Wolves

 

The Lion and the Wolf - Dark Angels Perspective

 

 

Perhaps the most famous rivalry in the Imperium is between the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves. It chafed the bombastic Space Wolf Primarch to see that Lion El' Jonson had more victories than he and matters came to a head on the world of Dulan, where the two Legions fought against the Tyrant Durath. After a personal insult, Russ swore he would cut Durath's head off and demanded that the Dark Angels stand down. Johnson, who had spent days laying meticulous plans, refused and launched his own attack. The Dark Angels swept into the citadel, and Jonson killed Durath. Caught flat-footed, Russ' sole contribution to the fight was to howl in frustration.

After the battle, Russ struck Jonson a blow. Jonson rose to his feet and struck back. A space was cleared and the two Primarchs wrestled while their assembled men cheered. Each Primarch was matched in superhuman strength and speed - if Russ was slightly stronger, then Jonson was marginally quicker. Each knew every trick and feint, and the fight lasted a day and a night. Russ, quick to rage, but also to mirth, saw the funny side of what had happened and began to laugh. For him, the fight was over; both men had taken each other's measure. Jonson, however, was silent; he was slow to anger and slow to forgive, and he saw Russ' first blow as treacherous. As Russ laughed, Jonson struck him unconscious. The prone form of Russ was carried from the fortress by his men, and now Jonson, in turn, considered honor satisfied.

When Russ awoke, the Dark Angels were gone, leaving him to swear that he would have vengeance for Jonson's low blow. Thus began a feud that still endures, for to this day, when Space Wolves and Dark Angels meet, a champion from each Chapter is called upon to refight that ancient duel.

--Sixth Edition Codex Dark Angels


Valerian

[DanPesci]

I like the 5th/6th codex versions. Mainly as i play wolves and my housemate plays dark angels, and it gives us an excuse for duels post battle. None of which my lone wolf has EVER lost. Hes tanked belial on 2 occasions. wussy deathwing

[securitas]

Prefer the sixth edition

[Castellan Michael]

Page 8, still have that ole'codex. 2nd edition is my favorite version.  

[Lord Ragnarok]

I can't wait for a Horus heresy book where the rivalry is expanded upon....if done right.

[Valerian]

I wouldn't mind a Horus Heresy novel from the Black Library expanded on the rivalry, but I sincerely hope they don't ever try to write about the events on Dulan.  The best and coolest aspect of that particular bit of fluff is that we don't actually know what happened, exactly, but we are only left with some lingering aspects of the story, passed down to us over the millennia; we have two versions, each of which is obviously influenced by the prejudices and preferences of whichever Chapter the tale was passed down within.  To actually tell the tale as it happened would shatter this, ruin the mystery, and certainly displease a whole subset of the fandom who's Chapter ends up on the "wrong side of history."  

 

It's the same with the mystery of where Russ went when he disappeared with his retinue at the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension; we're given several hypothesis any of which may be true, or perhaps none at all.  It's best when these are left unanswered.

 

V

[Lord Ragnarok]

Valerian, on 14 Feb 2014 - 17:19, said:

I wouldn't mind a Horus Heresy novel from the Black Library expanded on the rivalry, but I sincerely hope they don't ever try to write about the events on Dulan. The best and coolest aspect of that particular bit of fluff is that we don't actually know what happened, exactly, but we are only left with some lingering aspects of the story, passed down to us over the millennia; we have two versions, each of which is obviously influenced by the prejudices and preferences of whichever Chapter the tale was passed down within. To actually tell the tale as it happened would shatter this, ruin the mystery, and certainly displease a whole subset of the fandom who's Chapter ends up on the "wrong side of history."

 

It's the same with the mystery of where Russ went when he disappeared with his retinue at the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension; we're given several hypothesis any of which may be true, or perhaps none at all. It's best when these are left unanswered.

 

V

Yeah, I personally am not a big fan on keeping things a mystery (Russ's disappearance notwithstanding). From reading the HH series they seem to do a decent job of revealing things but creating new mysteries.

[Wulf Vengis]

Perhaps two books telling of the incident on Dulan. One from the wolves perspective and one from the dark angels, similar to the Prospero incident.

[Castellan Michael]

I wouldn't mind a Horus Heresy novel from the Black Library expanded on the rivalry, but I sincerely hope they don't ever try to write about the events on Dulan.  The best and coolest aspect of that particular bit of fluff is that we don't actually know what happened, exactly, but we are only left with some lingering aspects of the story, passed down to us over the millennia; we have two versions, each of which is obviously influenced by the prejudices and preferences of whichever Chapter the tale was passed down within.  To actually tell the tale as it happened would shatter this, ruin the mystery, and certainly displease a whole subset of the fandom who's Chapter ends up on the "wrong side of history."  

 

It's the same with the mystery of where Russ went when he disappeared with his retinue at the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension; we're given several hypothesis any of which may be true, or perhaps none at all.  It's best when these are left unanswered.

 

V

 

I think Bjorn deserves to know where the Ole' Wolf King has gone....then lead a crusade to bring him home or more likely support the fight!! 

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

As far as I am concerned Russ, Dorn & Mortarion have gotten the least attention from BL. I hope this changes in the future

[Night Runner]

As far as I am concerned Russ, Dorn & Mortarion have gotten the least attention from BL. I hope this changes in the future

I agree.  I am waiting for a HH book about the Space Wolves with a good 'in-depth' character treatment about our Primarch.  As glad as I am to read snipets of our Primarch in other books, I would really like to read something like 'The First Heretic' where Russ take s the pedestal so to speak.. 

 

As regards the OP post.  I have to side with my brothers who don't want to know about what happened at Dulan - but I wouldn't mind a story telling us why there were hardly any Terran Space Wolves left by the time of the 1st Battle of Prospero?

 

NR

[Max_Dammit]

Russ didn't take part in the HH, except for what we already got.

 

I would love to know who the unexpected help is the wolves get when they are blocked from terra by the nightlords.

 

I think that if one of the Alfa legions primarchs realizes he is wrong and helps out, that would be unexpected.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Russ didn't take part in the HH, except for what we already got.

 

I would love to know who the unexpected help is the wolves get when they are blocked from terra by the nightlords.

 

I think that if one of the Alfa legions primarchs realizes he is wrong and helps out, that would be unexpected.

they are actually blockd by the alpha legion. My suspicion is that he alpha legion will be the unexpected aid. :)