What are Ultramarines going to get?

[Russ Brother 92]

and here I was thinking it would be a pretty-boy primarch and lots of paperwork to sign before using them ;)

[ImpiousSmart]

Would love it if Robute's scenic base is a desk and massive stacks of paperwork.

[Akylas]

I'm thinking Praetor armour at least.

[deathspectersgt7]

A REAL PRIMARCH!!!!

[Akylas]

Sorry, I was thinking that UM mark V equivalent.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Sorry, I was thinking that UM mark V equivalent.

Don't worry, That's Praetor armor. You had it right the first time.

[The Nephilim]

Nothing? Aaaaaaand that is the difference :D

The most metal gift of all.

[Slave to Darkness]

I've heard a rumour that characters will be able to but an abacus gaining then a free reroll a turn.

 

They are also getting two special squads, battle accountants and the dreaded auditors.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/NZeOUI2zEbo/maxresdefault.jpg

[Brovius]

Aren't they the 'vanilla' Space Marine chapter though? Fabled for being extraordinarily ordinary, but with logistics and politics?
Ultramarines are like the Baggins family in a way. They never went off on any great adventures or did anything unexpected :p *cough* Llke help defend Terra *cough*

[Molokai]

Yes, they're definitely well thought of......

[Marshal Rohr]

Varangii Guard squads for praetors, special terminator squads, Guilliman, ventanus, and a home brew centurion level character.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Aren't they the 'vanilla' Space Marine chapter though? Fabled for being extraordinarily ordinary, but with logistics and politics?

Ultramarines are like the Baggins family in a way. They never went off on any great adventures or did anything unexpected *cough* Llke help defend Terra *cough*

Well, sort of like that, except where they were exceptional warfighters, and regarded as among the best of the best.

And they had logistics.

They were so awesome, that Horus had to come up with a ruse to keep them as far away from Terra as possible because he knew he couldn't beat them. He sacrificed the Word Bearers just on the crap shoot that he could keep the Ultramarines away from Terra. I mean, nobody's afraid of the Imperial Fists. They were so harmless the Emperor gave them the job of "defending Terra" to keep them from getting under foot out on the front lines. Now, the Ultramarines, those guys were serious business. ;)

[Hyaenidae]

Yeah, a totally "vanilla" Legion...

That had nearly as many victories as the Luna Wolves.

That established their doctrine and culture on 500 worlds, and governed them well.

That had the largest numbers, all quality Marines.

That suffered a brutally unseen murder-attempt by a Legion they once called brother, and still came back punching.

That saved the Imperial Fists from annihilation in the Iron Cage.

That killed at least one of the Alpha Legion Primarchs.

That burned Tsagulasa, and left the Night Lords Legion broken forever.

That broke Pertuabo's empire of steel around Olympia, and purged the homeworld of the IV.

That burned Colchis.

That pushed the traitor Legions into the Eye of Terror.

That saved the Imperium.

That reorganized the Imperial military with a codex doctrine that, if not followed to a tee, is at least heavily respected and feared for ten thousand years.

Yeah. Those vanilla guys.

Guys, I'm all for some friendly rivalry, but nearly 2 pages worth of "smurf-poking" is getting annoying. Either come up with something constructive, or use the golden rule.

[Memento Of Prospero]

You mean alledgedly killed an Alpha Legion primarch.

Nearly caused a second civil war with said codex.

No one saved in particular saved the Imperium.

 

Don't get me wrong, but all their post heresy acheivements are great because they were the most unscathe legion around to do the janitor work.

 

"Winning by default is it's own reward."

- Roboute Guilliman

[Marshal Rohr]

You mean alledgedly killed an Alpha Legion primarch.

Nearly caused a second civil war with said codex.

No one saved in particular saved the Imperium.

 

Don't get me wrong, but all their post heresy acheivements are great because they were the most unscathe legion around to do the janitor work.

 

Im pretty sure its written down in multiple places Guilliman did, in fact, save the Imperium. So, there is always that. I wouldn't really call it janitor work. Unless Stalingrad and things of a similarly mind numbing nature are Janitor Work.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

 

You mean alledgedly killed an Alpha Legion primarch.

Nearly caused a second civil war with said codex.

No one saved in particular saved the Imperium.

 

Don't get me wrong, but all their post heresy acheivements are great because they were the most unscathe legion around to do the janitor work.

Im pretty sure its written down in multiple places Guilliman did, in fact, save the Imperium. So, there is always that. I wouldn't really call it janitor work. Unless Stalingrad and things of a similarly mind numbing nature are Janitor Work.

I am sure it is, but how and why? It is written multiple times that Sanguinius saved the Imperium by creating a chink in Horus's armour, fighting a battle he knew he could not win. Dorn saved the imperium by fortifying the living hell out of the Imperial Palace so it would last that long. The Dark Angels and Space Puppies saved the imperium by forcing Horus's hand.

 

What does Stalingrad have anything to do with it? Every legion on Terra fought tooth and nail. He does not deserve special accolades for being late to the party and scopping up a corpse and dumping it in a golden recycling bin.

 

I will commend him for not taking over the Imperium however. He was in an easy position to do so.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

Nearly caused a second civil war with said codex.

Space Marine Legion failure rate before Codex: 50%

Space Marine Chapter failure rate after Codex: <2%

 

 

I am sure it is, but how and why? It is written multiple times that Sanguinius saved the Imperium by creating a chink in Horus's armour, fighting a battle he knew he could not win. Dorn saved the imperium by fortifying the living hell out of the Imperial Palace so it would last that long. The Dark Angels and Space Puppies saved the imperium by forcing Horus's hand.

If you're going to credit the Dark Angels and Space Wolves, you have to credit the Ultramarines. They were part of the "forced hand" scenario too.

 

And before you do anything silly like try to refute that last part, I've done the research. It's important to note that only approximately half of the accounts of the Horus Heresy in the fluff across the last twenty or so years have even mentioned the "forced hand" scenario. Most of the rest have stuck with "Nobody knows why" and a couple said it was because he was arrogant/curious, and a couple suggested he had a twinge of regret and allowed it. The Horus Heresy has never had a definitive version. The closest it got was the Collected Visions, and that one is one of the ones that mentions the "forced hand" scenario with the Ultramarines.

 

 

Either way, Terra was only the first part of the Heresy. It was obviously important, but discounting the Scouring as "janitor work" is ridiculous. The Imperium's continued survival past Terra rests largely on the shoulder of the Ultramarines and Guilliman. If you flippantly dismiss the Ultramarines as doing it only because they were "the most unscathed", then realistically the Scars, Fists and Angels only "just happened to be colose enough to Terra" to participate in the battle. It's silly either way. In the classical versions of the Horus Heresy (since we don't know what shenanigans are going on with the new one yet), the Ultramarines were missing for a reason, and that reason is that Horus knew that if he didn't strike Terra while the Ultramarines were too far away to do anything about it, he couldn't win. So he sent them as far away from Terra as possible, and sacrificed the Word Bearers to hold them up. My previous post was mostly a joke, but this is the reality: The Ultramarines were so dangerous that Horus had to devise a plan specifically so he didn't have to fight them at Terra. They weren't late because they were lazy. They were late because Horus made every effort to ensure that they would be.  and even that failed, because the Ultramarines were said to not only have been victorious at Calth, annihilating half of the Word Bearers chapter, but then destroyed a large group of Horus's reinforcements on the way to Terra. If anything, you could say that "forced Horus's hand". The Space Wolves and Dark Angels just "showed up", severely depleted in numbers. Though I don't want to take anything away from them either. Both of them destroyed a traitor Legion during the Heresy too. The Space Wolves destroyed the Sons, and the Dark Angels destroyed themselves. ;)

[Kol Saresk]

I wouldn't call the Scouring part of the Heresy. I'd hazard that it is a super-war in its own right. But it is monumental.

[Hyaenidae]

The Black Library (and most likely in time, Forgeworld) is changing that "unscathed" bit, though. Eventually, we'll have the full picture, but as of right now, we have two traitor Legions, plus a host of Alpha Legion kill teams, plus an insane Curze, running amok. I don't think the fluff writers are done punching the XIII legion in the face, either.

 

Personally, I'm thinking the UM and the AL never actually fought on Eskrador, and instead it was the site of an Interlegion civil war amongst the XX, the victor using the planet as both a cover and propaganda against the Ultramarines. Guesswork, of course, but with anything concerning the XX, it always will be.

 

The reason I posted that, though, was to illustrate how a simple question turned into a 2 page snark fest. I'm not some huge, Ultra fan, mind you. It's just that anytime a question gets posted, with a member of the B&C community asking an honest question about the UM, it devolves into the-horse-is-dead-beat-it-again jokes. Again, I love me some friendly rivalry, but c'mon; nearly two pages with very little constructive posts to aid a fellow member besides Logistics jokes? Oy vey.

[Vazzy]

I'll be happy to get whatever Forgeworld deigns to give us. Though Ventanus and Praetor pattern armor are high on my lists....

 

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/12494234385_76063c4dcd_c.jpg

Macragge by vazzy2012, on Flickr

 

 

Ultramarines will always have haters. I'm the butt of all jokes at my LGS and every dead marine is an Ultramarine. I know what my legion did, and I have no need to flaunt it. It was our job. We did it. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

To be clear, I don't hate the XIII. I however do not like the fact that people tend to put them on a pedestal for the Scouring, which as nothing to do with the Heresy. It's called the Horus Heresy. I am pretty confident that if an event or cause is named after you, it will end with you.

 

I did not say that they did not have a part in saving the imperium (or if we can even call the end result salvageable), but they do not own the exclusivity to it. That is self entitlement, and it's partly GW's fault for portraying them as the can do no wrong, flawless geneseed blue boys.

 

There is no tragedy to them or fault, and that's why people jump on the logistics joke wagon. There's nothing else to talk about. Where are the Roldoron, Sisigmund, Typhon, Arhiman or Khârn of the legion? You don't feel that way for any of the Ultramarines after reading Know no Fear. Because they a did what they had to do, because logistics and you should have killed us all.

 

And that last bit is another thing that grinds my gears. Is there a legion that you should not have completely destroyed in fear of the retribution? Have the Raven Guard given up? Have the Iron Hands given up? Have the Salamanders?

 

The loyalists of Isstvan III did it that part way better. Why does the XIII get to brag about that?

[Hyaenidae]

To be totally fair, everything after the Scouring is pretty much dead to me these days, so please forgive me. My universe got a wee bit smaller, and I try to revel in what I got. And I'm getting a feeling even the Scouring is going to change drastically, considering that both BL and FW have already said they'd love to take a shot at it. At the end of the day, I think we're all wrong, eventually.

 

I'm not trying to put anybody on a pedestal, but instead level the playing field. No one who is better, no one worse. Every Legion it's faults and strengths, it's victories and defeats. I just want to see the thread not die because of "hur hur, smurfs, hur hur".

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

 

To that end.... I want to see these Mammoth APC's that Mr. Abnett mentioned. I'm dreaming of a Rhino on steroids, with an assault ramp and frag launchers.

 

Some kind of fancy weapon unique to the UM Legion would be cool too. Some kind of heavy gladius, or....something. I don't know.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I want to see roman praetorian guards, with artificer armour, board/storm shields and gladius. Horse hair broom helms mandatory.

[Slave to Darkness]

Nearly caused a second civil war with said codex.

Space Marine Legion failure rate before Codex: 50%

Space Marine Chapter failure rate after Codex: <2%

<2% ? nah thats just what the Inquisition tells you. The truth is MUCH scarier

[Legatus]

I cannot really contribute anythong to the original question, since I am an Ultramarine purist/traditionalist. I would love nothing more for them than to get no special units at all, since that would best represent their "baseline" status. Regrettably, whatever the creators of the game may once have intended for the Ultramarines and what gets the players to part from their hard earned cash are two different things, so they probably will be getting special units.

 

But, someone was harping on about Ultramarines?

 

 

Because they a did what they had to do, because logistics and you should have killed us all.

And that last bit is another thing that grinds my gears. Is there a legion that you should not have completely destroyed in fear of the retribution? Have the Raven Guard given up? Have the Iron Hands given up? Have the Salamanders?

 

That was one of many, many notions from Know No Fear that I really didn't like. Aparently the Ultramarines are now the super vindictive type? I never knew.

 

As for their role during the Heresy and Scouring: In 1st Edition, the Ultramarines were described as taking part in numerous battles of the Horus Heresy across the galaxy. The Rulebook for the 1989 'Space Marine' Epic game, which takes place during the Heresy, has numerous stories and illustrations of Ultramarines fighting against different traitor forces. (This was in contrast to an earlier 1988 White Dwarf article that had described the Ultramarines as having been a third founding Chapter.) Though in that Rulebook the years of fighting after the attack on Terra were considered part of the overall "Horus Heresy" conflict.

In 2nd Edition, there was a stronger distinction between the "Horus Heresy" and the "Scouring" period. And now the Ultramarines were said to not have partaken in the initial conflict. The reason was not a ploy by Horus, but the Ultramarines' own success, which had carried them far away from terra. In 2nd Edition they were said to not have taken part in any fighting at all until Terra was already under attack.

In 3rd Edition, GW gave them a slightly more active role for the "Heresy" period. They were said to have fought back an attack of the Word Bearers, and they were said to have destroyed a traitor fleet that was attempting to reinforce Horus's forces at Terra. Though both of these actions took place at the very end of the Heresy. Some 3rd Edition ro later sources now also claimed that it was intentionally orchestrated by Horus that the Ultramarines could not take part in the fight for Terra.

The Black Library now significantly changes the lore, and has the Ultramarines be involved from the first days of the Horus Heresy. Where originally (2nd Edition and up) they got involved only at the time Terra was under attack, Black Library has moved the Word Bearers' attack to seven years earlier. This could perhaps be seen as returning to the accounts from 1st Edition, but then perhaps the numerous engagements referenced in the 1st Edition Epic Rulebook were meant to have taken place after the battle for Terra.