What are Ultramarines going to get?

[Unintentional Batman]

 

(This was in contrast to an earlier 1988 White Dwarf article that had described the Ultramarines as having been a third founding Chapter.

To me this is still the fluff that stands as the valid one. It was a sad day that they decided to retcon that. :(
 

[depthcharge12]

If you're going to fight against an Ultramarine, make sure that you kill him ;)

 

 

Though it might sound game breaking, I would actually like to see their rite of war make you take at least 2 20 man tac squads and you get a discount on them because they breed like rabbits in the Ultramarine system.

 

 

I could also see them getting a tactical flexible doctrine that gives d3 units a USR

[Veteran Sergeant]

I wouldn't call the Scouring part of the Heresy. I'd hazard that it is a super-war in its own right. But it is monumental.

Why wouldn't you? That's like saying WWII in Europe only lasted until the battle of Kursk, or D-Day when the German army stopped winning and was moved to the defensive.

 

The reality is that the Heresy started with Istvaan, and the tide turned at Terra with the defeat of Horus's main army.  If you have to fight for seven more years against his troops, a war isn't over just because the guy it was named after died.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 and they were said to have destroyed a traitor fleet that was attempting to reinforce Horus's forces at Terra.

That part is in Codex: Ultramarines, not 3rd Edition.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I wouldn't call the Scouring part of the Heresy. I'd hazard that it is a super-war in its own right. But it is monumental.

Why wouldn't you? That's like saying WWII in Europe only lasted until the battle of Kursk, or D-Day when the German army stopped winning and was moved to the defensive.

 

The reality is that the Heresy started with Istvaan, and the tide turned at Terra with the defeat of Horus's main army. If you have to fight for seven more years against his troops, a war isn't over just because the guy it was named after died.

No I'm pretty sure it's like the Invasion of Poland is one thing and Operation Overlord is another. The Horus Heresy is the Horus Heresy and the Great Scouring is the Great Scouring. Related, yes. The same war even.

 

But the Horus Heresy ended with the death of Horus at the Siege of Terra. The next seven years are the Great Scouring. They are both two parts to the same war, but they are still two different and separate events.

[Brovius]

You mean alledgedly killed an Alpha Legion primarch.

Nearly caused a second civil war with said codex.

No one saved in particular saved the Imperium.

Don't get me wrong, but all their post heresy acheivements are great because they were the most unscathe legion around to do the janitor work.

Im pretty sure its written down in multiple places Guilliman did, in fact, save the Imperium. So, there is always that. I wouldn't really call it janitor work. Unless Stalingrad and things of a similarly mind numbing nature are Janitor Work.

I am sure it is, but how and why? It is written multiple times that Sanguinius saved the Imperium by creating a chink in Horus's armour, fighting a battle he knew he could not win. Dorn saved the imperium by fortifying the living hell out of the Imperial Palace so it would last that long. The Dark Angels and Space Puppies saved the imperium by forcing Horus's hand.

What does Stalingrad have anything to do with it? Every legion on Terra fought tooth and nail. He does not deserve special accolades for being late to the party and scopping up a corpse and dumping it in a golden recycling bin.

I will commend him for not taking over the Imperium however. He was in an easy position to do so.

I don't hold a very high opinion of the Space Puppies, as their unfounded witch hunt practically forced Magnus to side with Chaos. If Russ never went after the Thousand Sons, Magnus would be powering the Golden Throne right now and the Imperium would be a little less screwed. I think the Space Puppies did more harm than good during the heresy, but that's just my slightly-informed opinion. I may or may not have all the facts.

Also, there would be a few thousand less psykers being sacrificed per day. Minor details

I wouldn't call the Scouring part of the Heresy. I'd hazard that it is a super-war in its own right. But it is monumental.

Why wouldn't you? That's like saying WWII in Europe only lasted until the battle of Kursk, or D-Day when the German army stopped winning and was moved to the defensive.

The reality is that the Heresy started with Istvaan, and the tide turned at Terra with the defeat of Horus's main army. If you have to fight for seven more years against his troops, a war isn't over just because the guy it was named after died.

No, WWII did end once the Russians had found Hitler's bunker in Berlin and what was left of him though. Replace Hitler for Horus (Both start with H. Coincidence, or exactly as planned™?). Granted, WWII wasn't called the Hitler Heresy at all but he did betray Stalin to kick off the war.

After Hitler's suicide it was all clean-up duty. It's not exactly a 'war' anymore if you're hosing down a few leaderless and demoralised troops, is it?

[Wade Garrett]

Eight whole Legions > the Wehrmacht after Berlin fell.

[Conn Eremon]

I, for one, am glad they got rid of the glaring oversight of "Ultramarines were too far away/only fought off one fleet and Legion at the very end" in the Horus Heresy.

 

It was like saying that the outfielders don't participate in the game because they are too far out. Complete and utter bull :cuss . Until now, the Ultramarines sat around on with thumbs up their :cuss , watching everything happen and only getting involved when someone got too close. They were't in some magical land in some far off galaxy. They were still in this galaxy. That is not too far away to do something. That is too far away to get involved right at the start, like at Isstvan, but certainly enough to get involved before it comes to a head, years before Terra. They honestly put zero thought into the Ultramarines at this time. Either that, or the whole "Ultramarines just wanted to set up a new Imperium" was true but unsaid from the beginning, and they are only now disproving that.

[Memento Of Prospero]

You mean alledgedly killed an Alpha Legion primarch.

Nearly caused a second civil war with said codex.

No one saved in particular saved the Imperium.

Don't get me wrong, but all their post heresy acheivements are great because they were the most unscathe legion around to do the janitor work.

Im pretty sure its written down in multiple places Guilliman did, in fact, save the Imperium. So, there is always that. I wouldn't really call it janitor work. Unless Stalingrad and things of a similarly mind numbing nature are Janitor Work.

I am sure it is, but how and why? It is written multiple times that Sanguinius saved the Imperium by creating a chink in Horus's armour, fighting a battle he knew he could not win. Dorn saved the imperium by fortifying the living hell out of the Imperial Palace so it would last that long. The Dark Angels and Space Puppies saved the imperium by forcing Horus's hand.

What does Stalingrad have anything to do with it? Every legion on Terra fought tooth and nail. He does not deserve special accolades for being late to the party and scopping up a corpse and dumping it in a golden recycling bin.

I will commend him for not taking over the Imperium however. He was in an easy position to do so.

I don't hold a very high opinion of the Space Puppies, as their unfounded witch hunt practically forced Magnus to side with Chaos. If Russ never went after the Thousand Sons, Magnus would be powering the Golden Throne right now and the Imperium would be a little less screwed. I think the Space Puppies did more harm than good during the heresy, but that's just my slightly-informed opinion. I may or may not have all the facts.

Also, there would be a few thousand less psykers being sacrificed per day. Minor details

The space wolves didn't decide to go after Magnus. The Emperor sent them to bring him back in chains, and Horus Twisted that. To Russ's credit, he even tried to get his brother to surrender peacefully, but was again misled by the whole Kasper Howser situation. The wolves are line soldiers, and they do what their are told, whatever it takes.

[Veteran Sergeant]

No, WWII did end once the Russians had found Hitler's bunker in Berlin and what was left of him though. Replace Hitler for Horus (Both start with H. Coincidence, or exactly as planned™?). Granted, WWII wasn't called the Hitler Heresy at all but he did betray Stalin to kick off the war.

After Hitler's suicide it was all clean-up duty. It's not exactly a 'war' anymore if you're hosing down a few leaderless and demoralised troops, is it?

That's not really a very relevant analogy.

The German military surrendered outright and mostly peacably after the fall of Berlin. The reason I used Kursk or D-Day is that they were more applicable analogies to where the tide turned. Technically the Horus Heresy was much more like the Iraq war. Over quickly, leader deposed, then seven years of counterinsurgency against the remnants of his forces and foreign belligerants. But the Iraq War didn't end when Baghdad fell. It ended (as far as Western involvement is concerned) with the departure of the last of the Coalition troops.

Ultimately, we can debate semantics. What is called what. But it's all the same war. Started at Istvaan, ended with the last remnants of the traitor legions being pushed into the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom. It wasn't like there was some cessation of hostilities when the traitors lost at Terra. That was just the turning point. The Scouring only occurred as a direct result of Horus turning traitor, so while it has a name define it much like an operation like Overlord or Market Garden, or even the Battle of Britain, it's still all the same war.

I, for one, am glad they got rid of the glaring oversight of "Ultramarines were too far away/only fought off one fleet and Legion at the very end" in the Horus Heresy.

It was like saying that the outfielders don't participate in the game because they are too far out. Complete and utter bull . Until now, the Ultramarines sat around on with thumbs up their , watching everything happen and only getting involved when someone got too close. They were't in some magical land in some far off galaxy. They were still in this galaxy. That is not too far away to do something. That is too far away to get involved right at the start, like at Isstvan, but certainly enough to get involved before it comes to a head, years before Terra. They honestly put zero thought into the Ultramarines at this time. Either that, or the whole "Ultramarines just wanted to set up a new Imperium" was true but unsaid from the beginning, and they are only now disproving that.

To be fair, the leadup to the Battle of Terra in the old fluff was really short. There were no "years" before Terra. The longest portion of the Heresy was the 6 months between Istvaan III and Istvaan V while the Imperium amassed the 7 legions to defeat Horus's 5. It's possible the Ultramarines weren't redeployed if the Imperium felt they already had enough forces. The Battle of Terra was only 55 days long. That's basically 8-9 months, start to finish, from Istvaan III to The Battle of Terra.

Horus wiped out the three Legions at Istvaan V, and then booked it for Terra so he could capitalize on the element of surprise. There was none of this lazing about like in the current series. He knew that he had 9 Legions vs 3. The Ultramarines could very well have been too far away if it took them more than the couple months or so to get word, and then get back to Terra. The Eastern Fringe is a long way from home.

It wasn't until later, as things were added in (The Spwolves vs the 2KSons at Prospero, for example), that there was even a need to expand the reasoning for why the Ultramarines didn't make it. I agree the story got a little better, even as it got muddled a bit.

[Wade Garrett]

The space wolves didn't decide to go after Magnus. The Emperor sent them to bring him back in chains, and Horus Twisted that. To Russ's credit, he even tried to get his brother to surrender peacefully, but was again misled by the whole Kasper Howser situation. The wolves are line soldiers, and they do what their are told, whatever it takes.

 

Let's imagine you're the Emperor. You want Magnus the Red brought back to Terra alive, to answer for his crimes. So who do you send to do the job?

 

You could send Roboute Guilliman. He's well known for level headedness and impartiality, he kept a cool head the last time you used him for something like this ("Are you done with your temper tantrum, Lorgar?") and his Legion greatly outnumbers the Sons.

 

Speaking of Lorgar, he also has a huge Legion, he has a rapport with Magnus, and he's got some credentials in the "peaceful resolution" area, what with the whole talking Magnus and Leman Russ out of going to war on Shrike.

 

The Khan likewise has a rapport with Magnus, and he's savage enough to do any killing that needs doing, but his Legion isn't baying for XV blood.

 

Or.....

 

You could send the Primarch who never stops mentioning that he's the Executioner. The Primarch whose Legion demanded Magnus's men be burned as warlocks at Nikea. The Primarch who already has a blood feud with Magnus after Shrike. The Primarch who, the last time he was in a situation like this, was the first to lose his cool and draw blades, which is especially damning because the other Primarch involved was ANGRON. You could send Leman Russ.

 

If there was ever a plan to bring Magnus back peacefully, Russ is the second worse choice to do it. (Absolute worst is a three way tie between Mortarion, Angron, and Konrad Curze)

[Kol Saresk]

Or, since Magnus was in such a repentant mood, the Emperor could have ordered Magnus to come to Terra.

[apologist]

What will Ultramarines get in the (presumably) upcoming Forgeworld book? So far Forgeworld has provided the Legions they've covered with at least a Primarch, a special character, and one or two units: generally one in power-armour and one in Terminator armour. There are some exceptions (Emperor's children so far have three units and no special character, Death Guard have two Terminator units and no power armour yet etc.); but I expect that eventually every Legion will eventually end up with at least three units, a special character and a Primarch.

 

Based on that, in descending order of likelihood for the Ultramarines:

They'll get Roboute Guilliman.

I expect them to get a set of models to represent the Legion-specific Praetor armour, much like the Iron Hands got their Legion-specific Mark III set. 

I anticipate that they will get some sort of special breacher or honour guard unit themed around the classical imagery of cloaks, crests and tower shields.

I would like (though this is pure speculation) to get some Calth tunnel fighters – heavily battle damaged and with lots of special forces equipment etc.

 

At the moment, I'm sure they're just ideas being floated around FW, rather than concrete plans. That said, it can't hurt to discuss and speculate. That's fun! :)

 

While I'm writing, let me just put in a 'hear-hear' for 1000 Heathens' comments. The Ultramarines are the baseline – but that doesn't make them boring. Being unimaginative or predictable makes for dull models; and that's much easier to get when you're funnelled into a theme like 'wolves' or 'jump packs' and don't do something intelligent with it. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

The Emperor trusts Russ obviously, as he must of done a good job in that nebulous past with the missing Legions. Russ was also the only one to still have psyker elements after Nikeae.

 

The use of Russ is also a clear warning to his brothers as well. The Emperor makes drastic decisions once his patience is at an end.

[Wade Garrett]

Russ has done a fine job for you in the past...what, when he picked a fight with the World Eaters and then utterly failed to bring Angron back to Terra?

 

And Russ has psykers? You mean those things the Legion were banned from using at Nikea?

[Memento Of Prospero]

Russ has done a fine job for you in the past...what, when he picked a fight with the World Eaters and then utterly failed to bring Angron back to Terra?

 

And Russ has psykers? You mean those things the Legion were banned from using at Nikea?

All the Nikeae decree did was disband the librarius department. He does not have one.

 

You also hyperbole Russ's intentions regarding Nikeae greatly. He even tried to plea to his brother to surrender arms peacefully.

 

I used to hate their wreckless behavior I thought they had, but ready Prospero Burns kinda makes you revise that.

[Kol Saresk]

Where does it say the Wolves killed the Lost Legions? Last I heard, we had some Word Bearers who recalled having difficult times dealing with them.

[Wade Garrett]

"I will not waste time with fancy words." said Wyrdmake. "I am called Othere Wyrdmake of the Space Wolves, and I fought in the murder make with the Thousand Sons on Shrike. I stood alongside its warriors on the baked salt flats of Aghoru, and I name them a coven of warlocks, every one a star cunning sorcerer and conjurer of unclean magic."

-A Thousand Sons, page 324

 

Yes, clearly Russ and his Legion were voices of moderation and restraint at Nikea.

 

And what Prospero Burns showed us was Leman Russ telling someone he thought was a channel to his brother Magnus must surrender, dropping out of the Warp to find Prospero's planetary defenses were all shut down...and immediately commencing orbital bombardment.

[Memento Of Prospero]

"I will not waste time with fancy words." said Wyrdmake. "I am called Othere Wyrdmake of the Space Wolves, and I fought in the murder make with the Thousand Sons on Shrike. I stood alongside its warriors on the baked salt flats of Aghoru, and I name them a coven of warlocks, every one a star cunning sorcerer and conjurer of unclean magic."

-A Thousand Sons, page 324

 

Yes, clearly Russ and his Legion were voices of moderation and restraint at Nikea.

 

And what Prospero Burns showed us was Leman Russ telling someone he thought was a channel to his brother Magnus must surrender, dropping out of the Warp to find Prospero's planetary defenses were all shut down...and immediately commencing orbital bombardment.

Low opinion of one's practices =/= Burn them to the stake and erase them from existence. Otherwise everyone would want to execute Angron and the Night Haunter for their opinions on their ethics.

[Slave to Darkness]

I think they should have some kind of fancy honor guard unit, and poss that guy from censure (name eludes me atm) just because they are the vanilla marines post heresy doesnt mean they cant have some sexy stuff in 30k, they only went boring due to the codex hoohaa, if the heresy never happened there would be no codex.

Tbh im a word bearers player, and really dont like the smurfs, but i hope they get some shiny new toys so  have more variety in what i kill 

[Legatus]

 

just because they are the vanilla marines post heresy doesnt mean they cant have some sexy stuff in 30k, they only went boring due to the codex hoohaa

 

But presumably the Codex doctrines were not made up entirely from scratch but were largely developed by the Legion throughout the Great Crusade?

[Cews]

...and They Shall Know No Fancy Fluff!

 

I'm really looking forward to seeing the 190€ "Ultramarines Battle Administratum" set containing three whole squads worth of clerks, scribes, bottom to medium level management personnel resplendent in MK II and horse hair plumage and why not a techmarine with an overhead projector. Add a sprue or two of assorted spread sheets and data slates to it, for that personal touch to your squads.

[Vazzy]

No offense Kol and Wade, but what does any of that have to do with what the Ultramarines receive from Forge World? 

[Kol Saresk]

Technically, nothing. But then neither does the battle-accountant jokes, the "I want them to be plain because it makes me feel nostalgiac" or actually ninety-nine percent of this thread.

 

Wait a minute, how is it just me and Wade who always get named?

[Legatus]

Objection! "Nothing" is a perfectly valid reply to the question what special units or gear the "base line" Legion may be getting. Even if that may be wishful thinking on my part, it is also the most sensible answer according to lore. But then "lore" is probably not going to be the deciding factor for FW.