sister of battle and astartes love - could it happen?

[securitas]

just a stupid thought i had could it happen

[Trevak Dal]

I remember an Old (archaic) Black Library novel where some Slaanesh marines were making 'War brides' out of some Governor's Concubines (The Inquisition War trilogy IIRC...) though that's not love of course, and it is quite Old and archaic.

Battle Sisters don't take a vow of Chastity that I recall, but Space Marines are by and large focused on the mission at all costs-there's no time for anything else except war gear maintenance and practice cage work with their battle brothers.  Chaos Space Marines however have regained their humanity (mostly in the form of greed, ambition, selfishness) so they could probably 'love' but that's unlikely given that they are Chaos Space Marines, and probably don't have any knowledge of how things work (or care).  

 

I imagine Humans are almost as alien to Space Marines as actual Xenos.  They were human, but plainly aren't.

[securitas]

im just wondering like i dont see all fallen as chaotic and some get alot of there humanity back

[Nomus Sardauk]

Problem is Astartes are bred for war, their training, hypnotherapy and genetic enhancements all gear them for a single purpose; to kill. Although Marines can feel human emotions and become emotionally attached to people I doubt it would ever go so far as love, or at least what we foolish mortals would classify as "love" in the romantic sense.

Their sense of purpose is what drive all marines, loyalist or traitor, the only difference is whether that sense of purpose is focussed inward or outward; Loyalist focus outward, they exist to serve the Emperor, to serve Mankind. Traitors focus inward, they'll serve the Chaos Gods but only because they think it'll benefit them or because they enjoy it.

Neither in my mind would be capable of caring enough for another so much for it to be considered love because it's simply not in their nature, loyalists have their duty to think of and can't afford to be distracted from it and traitors would consider such attachment weakness, something that a foe could exploit.

 

TL;DR: I highly doubt it, besides, GW have made a point of never answering if Astartes even still have their junk, let alone if it works.

 

(Still)TL;DR: No.

[Naminé]

It COULD happen since space marines still have thoughts and feelings like any other person (otherwise Chaos would have little to work with) although their training, workload and mentality would severely limit the possibility.

Consider that space marines exist in monastaries, surrounded by their bros and also that upon joining a chapter, I highly doubt they ever expect to find love, falling for a battle sister is very very unlikely.

 

Likewise, sisters are rare and even more heavily regulated and trained to forego such things. No man could ever match their love for the god-emperor. I would say there is an even smaller chance of a Sororitas falling in love then a space marine.

 

Any who was falling lile this would probably struggle to understand what the feelings were, and take penance amid the ranks of the repentia. :p

[securitas]

_{i think if a fallen da marine and a initiate sister, where stuck together in the right circumstances stuff could happen. even if it where a normal human.}

[Fibonacci]

If that's what you believe, sure.  Why not.  Does it fit the story you need for your army or whatever?  Knock yourself out.  Just ... don't expect everyone else to buy into your fluff.  Personally I don't think it is feasible for a 10,000 year old genetically alter being to "fall in love" with a 16 year old girl raised in perpetual sunday school.

[securitas]

i dont expect anyone to buy into MY FLUFF, it was a hypothetical discussion for a made up game in a made up universe.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Physically they could probably go through all the motions. A loyalist marine would probably not see the point of such a thing. The reward centers of their brains that would normally be linked to sex are are probably rewired to respond instead to violence. If a loyalist marine felt love for a sister of battle it would likely be a very different expression than what mortal humans would recognize. Like, "Baby, you are a freshly sharpened knife. If I die in battle tomorrow, promise me you will date my replacement so he can experience this amazing thing called love too. Let's punch each other in the face and talk about how much we hate heresy."

 

A loyalist space marine must constantly exercise self restraint. When they slip the control of the Imperium and deny the Emperor, they experience a sort of "preacher's daughter syndrome". Without the restraint provided by oversight they go a little overboard. According to GW's view of it as presented in the chaos marines codex, it's only a matter of time before the indulgences of their new found freedom leads them to full blown ruin, even if they started out as mere outlaws who didn't really want anything to do with chaos. They become slaves to their overblown and out of control impulses, with their strongest inclinations leading them to one of the four ruinous powers.

 

For a renegade to retain (or to gain) their humanity, the self-denial would have to be maintained somehow. A higher purpose as simple as tradition could do it, which is the route I took with my own CSM DIY. A renegade could also be so jaded and disillusioned with the pursuit of indulgence and power that they numb themselves to an emotional level that lets them act more within the range of mortal emotion. The danger there is "special snowflake mary sue" territory.

 

The sororitas are a different matter. They live lives of absolute commitment to a higher being. It may not be specifically self denial for its own sake, but they give themselves so completely to the Emperor that it is a functional sort of self denial. The question is how does that jive with more normal human interactions? If they are even allowed to have personal relationships, which could vary depending on convent rule and circumstance, then I feel that the sort of relationship they desired would be a pure one that glorified the Emperor in some way. Personal relationships could not interfere with their role in service to the Emperor. They could run a convent like an old school football team and say "no sex before the big game", or they could just say "it's too much a distraction so we forbid it completely". Either option would make sense to me, and be dependent on what the author wanted to do.

 

A sister of battle is still only human, however. I believe that it's entirely possible for one to fall in love. Why wouldn't it be? The issue is how would that interact with her duty? It could be a problem, but problems and conflict are what stories are all about anyway. The danger would be to make it too perfect, not addressing the problems it would invariably cause.

 

For a sister and a space marine to get together and have sex wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility to me. The space marine could be merely curious or bored, maybe even misunderstanding the situation but just going along. The sister could have any reason to do such a thing. Sex is a life affirming act, so it could be as simple to her as two soldier's finding temporary comfort in a trying situation. It could also be a lot more complicated than that, with the sister developing an interest in a space marine because of a perceived spiritual connection to the Emperor. Or it could be something as straightforward as, "well, I've always wondered about it, and here we are with some privacy and spare time..." Curiosity or boredom wouldn't be exclusive to the space marine, after all.

 

For a sister and a space marine to have a relationship beyond sex, I think that's trickier territory. They would have to love one another more than their respective duty, unless they were content with being whatever the 40k equivalent of pen pals is. Each one is a part of their order/unit, so they would not be free to pursue a committed relationship, except in a situation where they happened to be stationed in the same location for a significant amount of time. Which is, for loyalists, a possibility at least. A sister of battle from a small detachment guarding an obscure shrine one a world where a space marine unit for whatever reason has prolonged presence could be one possibility. A sister of battle assigned as a bodyguard for an Imperial agent of some kind who spends a lot of time working with a specific unit of space marines could be another, such as an Inquisitor who has a working relationship with a specific chapter or Death Watch unit. For a renegade space marine, the sister's devotion to the Emperor would require, IMO, at least a basic level of dishonesty or delusion on the part of the space marine, which would certainly complicate their relationship in the long run. All of which could make for a good story.

 

A fallen sororitas and a fallen space marine getting together? The sky is the limit, really. But then you're talking about characters who are already out of their element. Maybe they started out fairly innocently as described above, but their relationship caused them to find themselves beyond the blessings of the Imperium?

 

It's a contentious issue among the fan community. Like I said before, there is the danger of coming up with something that is against the setting's norms while at the same time not suffering any of the logical problems associated with that. I don't think a simple "Brother Billy and Sister Sally hooked up during the Bloodfight campaign and have been dating ever since and this is completely normal and doesn't bother anybody" would ever be acceptable to mainstream fans. But something that was complicated and caused problems for the lovers and had moments where how different the two really are caused problems between even each other, and it was well written and didn't forget that 40k is a grim and dark place, that I think would OK. Anything involving descriptions of the sex between them would be suspected of being just erotica not to be taken seriously, which would require extra skill and handling as a writer to not seem like that if that's not what you're going for.

[thade]

Looks like all the basics have been covered here, haha. I love both of these armies.

 

Space Marines are subject to extreme hypnotic indoctrination by way of their chapter cults; they aren't just bred and built to use weapons, they are weapons. Honestly, I don't really believe that Space Marines have very human thoughts anymore: they are so very different from us physically after the surgeries and indoctrinating, chanting for hours and hours every day, reciting literal litanies of hate and fury, torturing themselves (or, in some cases, others)...they're pretty messed up compared to us. It's not that they can't experience motions: solidarity, fury, and sometimes pride are definitely in there. I just don't see attraction being reasonable, nor have I seen anything to indicate otherwise. The only believable genuine affection I've seen between a Space Marine and anybody else was that between Argel Tal and Cyrene (First Heretic by A.D-B.)...which was much more of an "adult and child" or even "human and non-human pet" kind of affection than anything else.

But, even if one could, there's certainly one other branch in the Imperium even less likely to pursue love, and that would be the heiresses to the Brides of the Emperor: our own Sisters of Battle.

 

Sisters are at least as indoctrinated as Marines are (in their case, by the Ecclesiarchy). They're ruthless, fanatic killing machines that literally worship the Emperor, as they are the military arm representing the Imperial Cult itself. There's only room in their hearts for one, as they say, and that's the Big E.

It's just too far out of the realm of possibility for me.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Personally, I think the most likely result of a sororitas falling in love would be a fast track to the repentia squad. You could explain away the physical acts in multiple ways, but having strong feelings outside of duty would probably be looked upon at best as an immature infatuation to be remedied with severe penance. Love is on one hand a kind of selfishness, which is how chaos gets a foothold in even the most well intentioned of people. Love is on the other hand a kind of selfless devotion, and who deserves more of the sister's devotion than the Emperor?

 

Any sister of battle that I wrote as having a normal, human kind of love would have to be a tragic figure, but that's just me.

[thade]

I think any effort to write about "human emotions" with regards to Sisters (let alone Space Marines) is very difficult. We can't relate to them, and it's not just the incredible differences between our lives and those of your average Grim Dark survivor. It's the fact that they've been chanting and praying to the fires of war and insanity for their entire lives that makes so vastly different. I can explain this, if you'll bear with me a moment:

 

Bit of a relevant aside here: I read a lot of work by the Dalai Lama. Some very devout Buddhist monks (indeed, some of the cultures that they're a part of) do not value a one-on-one intimate connection like many (virtually all) western cultures do. The Dalai Lama feels he shares an intimate connection with everybody he meets, and defines intimacy as a genuine openness with everyone he encounters, based upon an unwavering assumption of common humanity. He sees physical affection as pats on the back, holding hands, and embraces with friends and family all. He (and monks like him) have trained their entire lives to learn to control their minds, to engender and value compassion within themselves for all: their friends, their enemies, everybody. These monks will never ever make out with anybody, let alone seek out sex, because they see the world in a radically different way than we do.

Now, go all Grim Dark on that and you'll see precisely what I mean.

 

Sisters do not value one-on-one connections with other humans the way our culture does. They share an intimate connection with only the Emperor, and define intimacy as only their undying devotion to him. They train their entire lives to learn to control their minds, chanting, mantras, litanies of hate...kind of like a monk. They value fearlessness, fury, and loyalty to the Emperor above everything else. Sisters will never make out with anybody, let alone seek out sex, because they see the world in a radically different way than we do.

 

See what I mean? Any moment I think "Well, they're human, so eventually they must have doubts or even want some makeouts." But then I remember "Yea, well, the Dalai Lama also sometimes has doubts, but his mind is way better trained than mine and those doubts do not last long enough to act upon."

 

A Sister's mind is way better trained than mine too.

[Fibonacci]

Well ... James Swallow tends to disagree with that somewhat.  While sexuality of any type is not mentioned in BL books (it's out of scope mostly) the Sisters of Battle are shown to have strong ties to family, friends and each other.  It is implied that by the time they were sent to Sanctuary 101, Miriya and Verity had become ... let's call it "very close friends."  Granted you don't write stories about the mundane and Sister Miriya is not your typical Adepta Sororitas but even other Sisters have grown strong emotional attachments to their friends and Sisters at arms.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I think any effort to write about "human emotions" with regards to Sisters (let alone Space Marines) is very difficult. We can't relate to them, and it's not just the incredible differences between our lives and those of your average Grim Dark survivor. It's the fact that they've been chanting and praying to the fires of war and insanity for their entire lives that makes so vastly different.

 

The point about "chanting and praying to the fires of war and insanity for their entire lives" is something I would entirely agree with. Any given Sister of Battle likely has an extreme case of PTSD that keeps her perpetually on the edge of a violent outburst. It would probably be more like TSD, with nothing "post" about it. But there are people today who had extremely screwed up upbringings or traumatic experiences, who have damaged psyches that cause them to hit the extreme edges of human behavior at times. In that respect I think it's perfectly reasonable to consider even a Sister of Battle to have a relate-able range of human emotion, it would just be filtered through their brutal worldview and traumatic life experience. This is why I say it could be a compelling story angle, especially if written by someone with personal experience or insight to that sort of thing, but that it certainly wouldn't make any sense if an SoB acted like a smitten teenie bopper. There would have to be something completely damaged in the way it came about and was acted upon.

 

 

It is implied that by the time they were sent to Sanctuary 101, Miriya and Verity had become ... let's call it "very close friends."

 

I keep hearing this, and I may just be oblivious, but I didn't see any of that in what I read. Maybe I should read it again...

[*Furyou Miko]

-Max-, your example of how a Sororitas/Astartes romantic relationship would sound is quotable. >> I don't have space in my sig, or it would go there, heh.

 

As for Miriya and Verity, they end the book holding hands, staring out into the void and dreaming of a future together. Verity then takes a dead-end assignment to a nothing shrine at the arse-end of nowhere, basically going against advice just shy of a direct order from her superior, just so that she can be with Miriya.

 

However, my view on what this means will be altered by my own nature - I am viewing these facts as a lesbian who has been in a (technically) non-sexual, but loving relationship for over ten years who has a romantic streak a mile wide. I adore a good love story.

 

On that note, I don't think Miriya and Verity are bumping uglies, as the vernacular goes. I think that they love each other, yes, but I don't think that love and sex are really anything to do with one another. Could a Sister and a Marine fall in love? Certainly. Love is based on mutual affection and admiration. Will a Sister and a Marine ever have sex? Almost certainly not. Agape, not Eros. Ai, not Koi. Love, not lust.

[Hellios]

 

On that note, I don't think Miriya and Verity are bumping uglies, as the vernacular goes. I think that they love each other, yes, but I don't think that love and sex are really anything to do with one another. Could a Sister and a Marine fall in love? Certainly. Love is based on mutual affection and admiration. Will a Sister and a Marine ever have sex? Almost certainly not. Agape, not Eros. Ai, not Koi. Love, not lust.

 

They are different things, and they don't 'need' to be related in an individual's life, but they are related.

[*Furyou Miko]

I don't agree, from my personal experience, but I suspect that the truth on this one varies from person to person.

 

Of course, if you were going to include sex, the Famulous would have conniptions at the idea. I mean, it's incest at the very least.

[Hellios]

I don't agree, from my personal experience, but I suspect that the truth on this one varies from person to person.

 

Of course, if you were going to include sex, the Famulous would have conniptions at the idea. I mean, it's incest at the very least.

 

We can agree to disagree, although I feel we may have similar ideas from different viewpoints, before we get Moderattied :P

[Roma]

I am too tired to read after the first half of the posts, but here's my two cents.

 

Take this for what it's worth to you, but in a Ciaphas Cain book, cain's last stand, he sees a sister in charge have an affair. He comments inside his head on this and doesn't express any damning thoughts, and mentions she doesn't have vows of chasticy or anything.

 

A space marine, on the other hand, I just cannot see having a sexual relationship with a human. The mentalities and physical characteristics are just completely different.

[*Furyou Miko]

The Cain books also have techpriests wearing white robes.

[Roma]

The Cain books also have techpriests wearing white robes.

Sorry I don't know what you are talking about. I assume you are suggesting the books are not always accurate? Ayways I'll stand by my statement.

 

Edit: the robes are meant to be red, so I assume that would be a fluff innacuracy. Still, big galaxy (galaxies?)

[thade]

Under my conjecture, a SIster may experience an emotional response similar to that of any other human, but their lifetime of mantra and mental training would make them far more resilient to it. Like a Buddhist Monk...but for war. They experience the range of emotions, but it needs to survive the gauntlet of their minds, which just doesn't pan out as possible in my mind. (As for Mr. Swallow, well...I tried his stuff. I have to say, it's not for me.) Space Marines are even further down the rabbit hole because, in addition to their extreme indoctrination, they also have a lot of new organs secreting weird inhuman hormones. I see Space Marines as being effectively alien to us. They are not human.

 

Besides, I think it's wise of the various GW writers (who often do a lot of over-the-top silly stuff) have stayed away from the romance side of things for either Sisters (who are notable for the fact they're women) or Space Marines (giant super soldier men). It would be very difficult to present it in a way that was neither cartoonish nor wish-fulfillment. On the other side of things, I think exploring a kinship between a sister and a marine would be really interesting. Consider some of their differences beyond what we've discussed up there:

• Sisters worship the Emperor as a god while Space Marines know he was just a (very powerful and smart) man; meanwhile, Chapter Cults are seen as borderline heretical but allowed to continue, due to the complex relationship between Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy. The Emperor opposed worship, yet he is worshiped; the Sisters oppose heresy, yet they must (for the most part) suffer the Space Marines. I think this alone would make the barrier of entry to friendship a tricky one, but possibly a fun and interesting one to explore. This is basically a Difference of Religion, and potentially a crippling one since both characters here are necessarily devout members of their "faiths".
• This philosophical difference has another layer to it, which is the clear opposition of their direct commanders.
• Marines live very, very, very long lives compared to ordinary humans. While a high-ranking Sister might receive rejuv treatements or cybernetics to keep them going, that's not going to be true for a rank-and-file Sister, I think. An 80-year old Space Marine, grizzled, knowledgeable, and patient would make an interesting contrast with a mid-20s, battle-hardened Sister. (Honestly, the best example that comes to mind for me is that of Argel Tal and Cyrene; the particulars there were radically different, but the overall dynamic from the Marine's side of things is what I'm going for here.)

There are more barriers than this between them, I'm sure.

[thade]

Edit: the robes are meant to be red, so I assume that would be a fluff innacuracy. Still, big galaxy (galaxies?)

Just one galaxy.

[*Furyou Miko]

 

 

The Cain books also have techpriests wearing white robes.

Sorry I don't know what you are talking about. I assume you are suggesting the books are not always accurate? Ayways I'll stand by my statement.

 

Edit: the robes are meant to be red, so I assume that would be a fluff innacuracy. Still, big galaxy (galaxies?)

 

 

Yeah, my point was that the Cain books don't really match up with the rest of the fluff very well.

 

Actually, in the author's notes for Hero of the Imperium, Mitchell basically says outright that it's not really the same 40k universe.

[Fibonacci]

I think given enough time together -- maybe they are the last two survivors of frigate after a void battle and spend several years together waiting to be found -- they would still need to train, practice, exorcise, meditate and recite their litanies.  They could certainly become friends.  They may develop a student/teacher relationship or rather master / apprentice from the simple fact of having to spar against each other daily. 

 

Maybe a Scout who is still partly human and some of his human organs still serve human function designed by nature -- and is under 1000 years old -- could develop a romantic relationship with a Sister of Battle.  A Sister and a Guardsman would be almost cliche.  But any relationship would last only as long as the next assignment.  There are a lot of planets and a lot of things waiting to kill them both so it is highly unlikely they would ever see each other again.  Just another day in service to the Imperium and worship of the Emperor.