Razorbacks, yay or nay?

[captain sox]

Hey folks, 

 

 Just got back from impulse spending and bought a few units I don't have in my army yet. I picked up a Venerable Dreadnought and a couple of Razorbacks. I have zero tank /  transports, and decided they really are a must. 

 

 My question about the Razorback, do people still use them these days or are the like CD's, vinyl records, cassette tapes or VCR's? If people still use them, what is the preferred load-out? Keep them cheap, or add the Las, Ass Can or Laz/Plas combo? I plan to use magnets to make all variants, (because I like to try things for myself) but to start, I'd like insight on the most useful load-out. These will likely carry combat squad Tactical Squad or cheap command squads, or both. I plant to get at least 5 or 6 of them.

 

Thanks for your input!

 

Sox 

[Torbenos]

I've personally used mine pretty much just for my Command Squad, the whole 5 Veterans + HQ  makes the size just about right and to me it feels better to add a weapon on there than waste 4 spots. I tend to add onto a Assault Cannon.

 

Problem is mainly that like the Rhino, it dies quickly and is an easy First Blood target which the enemy will probably focus on, since it is also more of a threat than the regular Rhino with its weapon.

[Brother dean]

Fella that tabled me last tourny (blue special snoflakes) said that his Laserback always makes his points back...  I've not played anything but HBolterbacks but I can see the appeal for both las and AC...  even just for snapshots at fliers...  then there are MMeltas and flamers and....

 

I usually only upgrade when I have spare points.  it isnt usually a MUST TAKE plan when I bring them because the rhinos have fire points and that heavy the (demi) squad is packing just might get the job done from the upper hatch.

[MadMek83]

Alone razor is dead razor. Add more armor saturation, Las/plaz and Autocannon dreads can deal unprepeared force alot damage. Problem is that getting Enough Armor saturation will cost quite alot and you need to use smaller squads. But they work but question is will they work for you. That all comes to down local meta and how do you like to play.

[Brother dean]

Not really...  Park the razorback next to a Vindi and watch it survive just fine...

[MadMek83]

vindi is considerated part of the armor saturation ;) Just try field single Razorback and see how fast that dies, epsecially Las/plaz variant.

[CovertToaster]

Razorbacks are fine it's a cheap way to carry another heavy weapon which is always nice and any marine force can play an armoured column of 2 vindi's, 4 min size units in razorbacks, and 2 riflemen dreads. Like many other units it just depends on how you use them.

[Dafoo]

I think the key difference for us with Razorbacks is that we can bubble wrap about three of them with a Librarian or Techmarine on a bike. It would be better to wrap a vVndicator and two Razorbacks though. Tweak and see what works for you. I love my BA Razorback list. Although that is really not relevant in this case (mainly because those ones are fast). I use mostly Rhino's and Land Raiders for Dark Angels personally, Banners don't tend to do much for Razor lists. I need my banners.

[Master Avoghai]

Razorbacks have their use as a mobile HW platform in an assault heavy army.

I often take them by pair with TLLC to hunt enemy tanks.

They often stay backward when the rest of my forces advance forward.

 

 

Like it has been said you should not take them if you don't have other tanks. The only exception is low points army (1000-1200) where enemy AT power at range may be low.

 

However I never deploy mine in LoS. You have 6" move before shooting so profit from it.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Armoured vehicles of any kind tend to work better when they are fielded in multiples. A single one will get alot of atention... 2 or 3 or more will make the enemy anti tank weapons hard pressed and increases chances of survival for everyone.

[shortysl]

My Battle Company has three. The Command Squad get the standard Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter to soften up units before they go in. My 5th and 6th Tactical Squads are tank-hunters that combat squad before every game. Their Razorbacks get a Twin-Linked Lascannon and a Las/Plas for that extra punch against tanks and armoured infantry. Works well enough for me.

[march10k]

I played pbenner's new pedro list tonight. It changed my thinking a little. rhino chassis vehicles are an easy first blood target (I failed, I merely immobilized my mark...but it was smoked in night fight), but beyond that, they're good in shooty lists...if you spam them. He had 5-6 of them, and the one that I immobilized on the bottom of one was the only one that failed to deliver its cargo. would I take razorbacks, specifically? No. I only field ten man squads when it comes to power armor.

[Isiah]

And I think that's the key point here march. Big squads don't fit in little RZBs. If your preference is for 5- or 6-man squads then fine but take plenty.

 

But I do like the weapon options we can take on them nowadays - and all at 20 points too. Where else can you get a tl-lascannon so cheaply?

[Master Avoghai]

And I think that's the ket point here march. Big squads don't fit in little RZBs. If your preference is for 5- or 6-man squads then fine but take plenty.

 

But I do like the weapon options we can take on them nowadays - and all at 20 points too. Where else can you get a tl-lascannon so cheaply?

It also depends if you use them for transport or if you consider them as mobile HW...

 

In my case, I don't use the transport capacity. So the 5-10 things is not a problem

[Isiah]

True true MA but the OP is using them (or at least intends to) as pukka transports I think.

[march10k]

Where else? Nowhere, of course. But it's a (god)hammer in an eggshell. I'm much happier with a dual tllc contemptor...

[captain sox]

Very good feedback everyone. My intentions would be to most likely combat squad specific Tac squads, and have a Command Squad ride along in one as well. Could also build an assault squad with no jump packs to ride in one or two of them. I know they aren't assault vehicles, but would be just nice to have some sort of protection and mobility for my PA troops. This is the eventual evolution of my army. I have enough bikes, TDA and air support. I need vehicles. My Mech list is growing. I need at least 5 Razors, 2-3 Whirlies, couple of Vindicators, some Dreads and of course Predators and Land Raiders. I only have 2 razorback now, which is a start. 

[march10k]

I'd like to add that the razorback is...conflicted.  It can't decide if it's a transport or a tank.  You can't execute a rhino rush with it unless you give up the shooting that you paid for, and if you go slow enough to shoot, you're actually moving slower than a marine can run.  I could accept rhinos, if you take enough of them to ensure that some get where they're going before blowing up, but only because they can move 18" per turn.  They don't really provide meaningful protection.  Razorbacks on the other hand, provide the offensive output of a dreadnought, meaning that they represent the same threat level, but they're far easier to kill without being less of a priority to the enemy.

 

I've changed my thinking about rhinos...but I still think razorbacks are a horrible waste of plastic with delusions of mediocrity.

[CovertToaster]

I'd like to add that the razorback is...conflicted.  It can't decide if it's a transport or a tank.  You can't execute a rhino rush with it unless you give up the shooting that you paid for, and if you go slow enough to shoot, you're actually moving slower than a marine can run.  I could accept rhinos, if you take enough of them to ensure that some get where they're going before blowing up, but only because they can move 18" per turn.  They don't really provide meaningful protection.  Razorbacks on the other hand, provide the offensive output of a dreadnought, meaning that they represent the same threat level, but they're far easier to kill without being less of a priority to the enemy.

 

I've changed my thinking about rhinos...but I still think razorbacks are a horrible waste of plastic with delusions of mediocrity.

 

Razorbacks are a support unit for the squad they carry. Basically GW claim that they are worth 4 marines therefore they reduce the transport capacity to reflect this.

 

While I've entirely made that up it's the easiest way to explain it. You spread out your razorback squads to take up shooting positions or claim objectives and the vehicle becomes mobile terrain to block LoS to the squad while they take out another target. Any other uses are limited aside from factions like BA who can get away with 5 man assault squads via death company. 

 

If you can push something out front to attract attention, however, and use the razorback squads to support these units then they can be very useful but are generally not good as a frontline vehicle.

[lhg033]

my plan (if I ever get around to it) is to have a tank themed force of successors, AoV, that I can play as either DA along side my 3rd company/RW/DW armies to bulk up numbers and add variety or I can use them as allies with different rules to represent different tactics employed by a different part of a larger army (lets me play around as blood angels for a day etc I plan to have magnetic banners/symbols on models to make it obvious the rules they follow other than 'these green ones are DA, theses black ones count as BA')

 

that said - they've been languishing in their boxes awaiting assembly for considerable time due to lack of time

 

cant comment on 6th but I previously used to stick with HB's and use my razors for crowd  control whilst infantry heavy weapons dealt with armour and had reasonable success

[shortysl]

Re: March10k's post, I see it another way. I don't believe Razorbacks are conflicted in their role, I believe they provide tactical flexibility. Yes you pay extra points for a heavy weapon but you can choose each turn whether to take advantage of it's firepower (moving 6" that turn), or if no priority targets present themselves, you take advantage of it's mobility (and you still get Snap Shots with a Twin-Linked weapon). Where the Rhino is a pure APC and the Predator is a pure MBT (in terms of Astartes vehicles), the Razorback is an IFV. Jack of all trades, master of none, like the Astartes themselves.

[SvenONE]

The Razorback to me, always seemed to be a transport intended specifically for an HQ+Command squad.  I've run them this way a few times but with little luck, mainly because my list didn't compliment the razorback.  Sending a Razorback up the field by itself while your troops slog behind doesn't really work.  It was only after I started utilizing drop pods and rhinos that I had a little more success.  I consider success to be my razorback delivering my units (usually a chaplain/company master/librarian+command squad) to beat something up.

 

The TLLC I always found to be a great way to make the thing cost way too much.  I can't discount how good a TLLC is, but a long range weapon on a unit that's meant to be more or less at the front lines always seemed a little at odds conceptually.  If it was a multi-melta for 10 points that's another story.  In most cases I put a heavy flamer on it.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Until 6th changed things up I regularly used 4 or 6 TLLC RBs with the HW half of a combat squadded unit to great effect in the back field they synergise really well with WWs too. Their ability to hide behind other Rhino chassis vehicles and still shoot over top is priceless, and if you give the enemy plenty to worry about by charging everything else at their face RBs can do very nicely as powerful AT and sniping units. If the TLLC kills two marines it has paid for itself.

Spam (Redundancy) is the key, in 6th I struggle against the dredded Tau with a similar list but who doesn't :devil:

[Cactus]

I don't really see the point of razorbacks. If you want to move your guys around a rhino will do the job no worse (better actually, as they can fix immobilising damage) for significantly fewer points. Less than half the price if you're in the habit of upgrading the razorback's gun.

 

If you want mobile heavy weapons a land speeder gets you more firepower and more mobility for roughly the same cost.

 

Also, I like my tactical squads to be ten strong with the option to form some or all into combat squads. Razorbacks don't fit well with that.

[Interrogator Stobz]

The point of the RB is to LC snipe not to transport ;)

I also agree that there are better costed options for that role (like the Typhoon) but for a greenwing themed army a TLLC that can pop out of LoS or shoot over a wrecked or otherwise stopped Rhino chassis is a great way to use them, I have always wondered why the basic option cost more than a Rhino when they gain a mobile TLHB  but lose four transport slots, two fire points and repair.  

I still love the concept of the IFV/RB and struggle to make them work in a less than hospitable environment.

One way is two groups of: TLHB Razor to the front, TLLC Razor hidden behind it and a Whirlwind hidden behind that, open the enemy transport with the TLLC, cull the occupants with the WW them mop up stragglers with the closer TLHB and SB afterwards. I leave my 4x10 man tactical squads to shoot at transports first round then advance at the enemy in cover and to provide a little target option stress to the enemy.

 

2c