Demo's 2014 ToS thread

[Demoulius]

Hey all,

Im going to ToS for the 40k tourney this year (17 and a18 may to be precise) and I want to bring a somewhat different list to what im used to.

I used to bring a libby, 3 assault squads, Baal, Vindi, tacticals, speeder and some priests to give everything FnP. While there is nothing wrong with the list I find myself out-assaulted more and more these days and challenger have a way of crippling the character support in my assault squads (curse you GW for not allowing my libies invul saves!)

With that in mind I want to write (and build where nessesary) a new list for ToS. Ive got a little time to practice and I intend to use it :D

One change that im considering anyway (and its more for fluff and appearance) is change up a PF sargeant for my jump assault marines to a powerspear/storm shield one. (oh im not going for an WAAC list, does it show? :D)

Id like for you guys to help me abit with making up my mind with my list. And im not posting this in the list building department because I also want to post pictures of new models and batreps of the event here.

Il start with the biggest problem first: The warlord. Ive always used libies as my warlords because of their versatility. This time over, I want a warlord that can kick some teeth in and not get wasted in first turn of a challenge . The only thing set in stone is a jump pack. What do you guys suggest I do?

[Morticon]

Does mephiston count? :P

[JamesI]

Honestly, Mephiston.

 

Only other choices if you know you want a jump pack are Dante or Astorath or Sanguinor.  I'd go Mephiston.

[Xenith]

How many priests are you using? ToS is 1500, right? I wouldnt go with more than 2 at that level, tbh I probably would only take 1, if any.

[BloodTzar]

One problem with Meph beeing WL, is that you really want to send out Meph to bring the pain. While doing so you are risking 1VP, slay the WL just like that. 

 

Id suggest to get either libby with TA/SS with termies, or take RS Servin Loth... couple days ago I had a game where Mepth + Loth ( with tacticals in pod with that special char of  RS) did almost all the heavy lifting (nasty combo)

[Demoulius]

I did not consider Mephy actually
my only worry with him is that he has no jumppack (and I dont count wings as a jump pack, as psychic test have a way of ****ing me over at the least opportune time) and that hes...well, a loner. He lacks un invul save as well so guardsmen vets with plasmaguns can pretty much kill him in one turn of shooting....

Ive never played him but with his stats I can easily see him turn anything with a 3+ save into swiss cheese problem is getting there in one piece and considering I will most likely only get a single game a week (if even that) im not confident enough that il be able to make him work in that time....

On the other hand I have tried Astaroth out a few times (with a proxy model) and I quite like him. His S6 power axe is nothing to sniff at and most other hq models tooled for combat would strike before his I5 anyway. He has 4++, 2+ AS and with rerolls to hit (and wound for DC) he brings the pain alongside his men in combat as well.

In hindsight he probably gives exactly what im looking for. Survivable in combat, has a punch in combat himself and he also still buffs my army in some ways :D

How do you guys feel about Asto? Is he a good choice at 1500?

[Terrahawk]

Even though I haven't really run him, I think Astorath fits what you are looking for. Another option would be running a Reclusiarch with a Jump Pack, if you want to save some points. You will have only AP4 if you run with the Crozius, but on the plus side you will hit at Init 5. You can always add a Power Fist for the Reclusiarch, but then you are starting to look at a hefty price tag and might be better off running Astorath instead. Astorath also gives the Red Thirst a a chance of actually happening!

[Demoulius]

Well last time I ran him fully half of my army had red thirst :D mind that was because I rolled a few 1's but whose counting

Alright so I have 220 pts set in stone. Im contemplating giving Asto a few DC buddies to run around with. Ive previously used 7 with a powersword and thunderhammer thrown in in case I have to pit them against big monsters. So thats another 290 (and a TH DC model that I have to make :D)

I was thinking of adding a 10 man assault squad with PS (power spear) and SS with 2 melta. Just for looks mostly but its a fun project non-the less. Just have the make the sargeant... A JP PS (power sword) priest would join them.

At this point ive got the assaulty part of my list down and got my mandatory selections included. Im sitting at 835 points.

The ranged inclusions are somewhat of a hinderance tbh as im terrible at deciding what fits well and what doesent....

What do you guys reckon I should take to fill in the rest of the list? Mech or infantry? Ive previously used a mix and that dident got to well

[Demoulius]

Alright guys trying to wrap my head around this.....

Attempt 1:

Astorath

7 jump DC, Thunderhammer, powersword

10 assault marines, Powerspear&SS and 2 melta

5 man scout squad with missle launcher and camo cloaks

10 man tatical squad with PG, MM, PF and rhino

5 man devastator squad with 2 missles and rhino

Furioso with heavy flamer and magna-grapple

1500 pts on the dime.

And like I said, im terrible at picking ranged units the 2 rhinos are in to give the jump troopers something to hide behind (mobile cover), the furioso more because I havent run a dread in ages and in this setup he can be both AT an AI. The scouts are in because I like them.... and had 100 points to spare. 2 MM AB's could also fill in the points and give me alot better anti-vehicle power but those cant hold objectives. With camo cloaks and a good terrain piece the scouts are a pain to disloge, shame I only had points for 5...

Thoughts?

[Xenith]

Finf te extra 20pts to get the full 4 heavy weapons in the dev squad. I'd drop their rhino, they dont need it.

 

Try and get a drop pod for the dread.

[Demoulius]

Cheers for the feedback Xenith :)

The devastators rhino is needed to give the jumpers a shield to hide behind, as I find weapons like battlecannons and the like tear through jump pack marines like nobodies bussines.... To be clear, they will not ride in it :) im using it as a mobile shieldwall!

They also only got 2 missle launchers because of points (obviously) but also because if I add 2 further missles the unit starts losing effective AT firepower with each wound. Now they got 2 bolter marines who act as meat shields and can absorb 2 wounds before I start losing firepower.

I also considered a droppod for the Furioso but im afraid it will just make him die early :( I can free up the points for the pod by removing the heavy flamer, manga grapple from the furioso and the powersword from my sanguinary priest...

Oh yea, ive also got a PW, jump sanguinary priest that hops along with the assault squad, forget to mention him earlier!

So in short the devastator rhino is needed imho. I dont got the points for extra missles if I want to include that drop pod. Im considering it but actually never played with a drop pod not to sure how it would pan out!

[Xenith]

Cheers for the feedback Xenith

The devastators rhino is needed to give the jumpers a shield to hide behind, as I find weapons like battlecannons and the like tear through jump pack marines like nobodies bussines.... To be clear, they will not ride in it im using it as a mobile shieldwall!

They also only got 2 missle launchers because of points (obviously) but also because if I add 2 further missles the unit starts losing effective AT firepower with each wound. Now they got 2 bolter marines who act as meat shields and can absorb 2 wounds before I start losing firepower.

I also considered a droppod for the Furioso but im afraid it will just make him die early I can free up the points for the pod by removing the heavy flamer, manga grapple from the furioso and the powersword from my sanguinary priest...

Oh yea, ive also got a PW, jump sanguinary priest that hops along with the assault squad, forget to mention him earlier!

So in short the devastator rhino is needed imho. I dont got the points for extra missles if I want to include that drop pod. Im considering it but actually never played with a drop pod not to sure how it would pan out!

Ok, I can see your logic, and try it out for a game to see how it goes.

I may be wrong, but I can see the problems as follows: Most platforms that have battlecannons are on turrets, which can see over rhinos. To hide the ASM behind the rhino, you have to bunch them up, which just makes the battlecannon want to shoot them/the rhino even more. It will provide little to no real protection. Land raiders actually conceal units.

The dread may be killed if it pods in, but at least it will kill a unit before it dies itself. A walking dread with short range weaponry will do nothing before being killed.

[Demoulius]

Thats why I have 2 of them :p at worst it will just provide a cover save and if im lucky prevent them from beeing hit at all :)

 

I see the point about the pod. Il try out a list without a pod and a list with. And see which one I like more :D

[Bartali]

I can only reiterate that walking a Furioso up the field will likely get it killed before it does anything. If you want a Dread without a Pod, take a Librarian Furioso with wings

 

If you run a Furioso in a pod, I'd highly recommend taking at least two. At least one should make it past turn 1/2, and they'll take fire off the Astorath/DC combo as they move up

[thebymster]

I strongly recommend using xenos inquisitor as WL, tucked away with your scouts / devs (although I took long fangs tot last tourni and they did good) let Mephi rum where he wants, taking attention away from WL!

Grey Hunters to guard long fangs, =][= and objective.

Rune priest with jump pack to give prescience to assault squad, or jaws ww for tau/orks.

Servo skulls on =][= helps with deep striking and shooting his conversion beamer.

Fragioso in pod for first blood / illuminating units for long fangs if it's night fight!

Bit late to get all this together but it's such a fun all round and versatile list to play: full list on the "how do we deal with taudar" thread...

[Demoulius]

Thanks for the replies all :)

 

Like I said il try the list both with, and without pod and see what I like best.

[Papa Lazarou]

I did ToS last year and had a great time, didn't do to bad either . Personally I found Meph to be a beast and a great all rounder, even if he did kill himself on the odd occasion (PoW).

I do have to agree you do need some kind of delivery for the furioso on a 6x4 board otherwise all you may end up doing is walking him around all day. If you can I would take attack bikes instead of the devs as they will be more agile and will hit with same amount of punch.

[Demoulius]

Had a game against a buddy of mine today. Lost in the last round of the game (and was nearly completly wiped...so was he but still.) and some things struck to me.

*Devastators are kinda....misplaced in the list. I had them in the list as some ranged anti-tank AND to provide my jump troopers with another rhino to hide behind.

*Scouts are kinda hit or miss if you dont have a pre-determined plan for them. I dident have one in mind for them and it kinda hurt. failing 4 2+ cover saves in the first turn (night fighting) dident help them either

*Furioso died second turn after it immobilized an enemy transport and failed to do anything else after that (drop pod was a huge annoyance for my opponent though )

So with only having 1 game with the list so far do you guys think I should make some changes now or give the list a few more tries?

[SnorriSnorrison]

Hey Dem,

 

I quite like the list. However as said previously, the Furioso needs some means of transportation. I'd prefer the drop pod, but you might opt for a Stormraven as well. Problem with the latter might be the cost of said unit, and that you'll have to build your list largely around it. All eggs in one basket, yaddah yaddah and so on ;) .

Are you using an "Fragioso" with Frag Cannon? It's an interesting combo, 3 templates bring quite the havoc to a lot, you should try it out if you haven't!

 

Anyway, if you drop the Rhino on the Devs you'd have the points for the drop pod, actually there's 15 points left over you can spend on other stuff. Yes, I know that will decrease mobile cover for your assault squad, but in the end, one Rhino must be enough for them to get a cover save. It's not optimal, but the Furioso can't be walking around the battlefield for 3 turns doing nothing. If dropping the rhino is not an option at all, I'd drop the Furioso( with a pod!! lol punzzz). Nah seriously. Walking is not an option for the ancient ones. ;)

 

That's it so far actually. At 1500 pts, us BA can't choose too many gimmicks if you ask me, or we'll be seriously disadvantaged.

 

 

Snorri

[Chaplain Admetus]

If you can, I'd try and grab a Raven as otherwise you'll be hurting for anti-air. But Ravens are really expensive. I've found devastators to work quite well for me personally. If you're willing to take some advice from a former ToS BA champ, I'd ditch that rhino for a start and grab more missile launchers and a pod for the Dreadnought. Probably ditch the Storm Shield on the sergeant, as I'm not sure that it's necessary. If you want a budget option - swap Asty (work with me here!) for a Reclusiarch with Jump Pack and Power Fist - that frees up 150 points and means you can take a multi-melta attack bike (and 2 of those bad boys are pretty good).

 

If it helps, the list I had success with ran a lot of similar elements to yours, so I could post it up if you'd like?

[Demoulius]

Hey guys,

Whilst overlooking my list that I played with last time I actually did not factor in the cost for the Vindi, so I was actually playing with 160 points more then I should have

Removing the devastators for the vindi im also coming up short 20 points. Aaaaaand im overlooking the list and as much as id love taking Asto I simply dont see a point if theres only an tactical, assault and a scout squad taking his " red thirst on a 1-3 instead of just a 1" rule. Its nice, dont get me wrong. But nowhere near worth the points in a 1500 pts list...

So with that regard, back to the drawing board!

I could take a Reclusiarch with jumppack, drop the magna-grapple of the Furioso and add 2 MM attack bikes. Have 5 points to spare, add a meltabomb to the Chapy and call it a day? :) 1500 pts on the spot that way.

To recap, the list would be:

Reclusiarch with jumppack and meltabomb.

7 DC with 1 powersword and thumberhammer.

10 man assault squad with powerspear and stormshield, 2 meltaguns.

JP and PS sanguinary priest.

5 scouts with camo cloaks and missle launcher.

10 man tactical squad with MM, plasmagun, powerfist and a rhino.

Vindicator with siegeshield.

Furioso with blood talons, magna-grapple and drop pod.

2 MM AB's.

Does this seem a bit better? :)

[Chaplain Admetus]

In my capacity as a Throne of Skulls Veteran (Ok, fine, I've been three times, shush :P ) I reckon it looks pretty good. The one thing I'd advice -against- is actually the vindicator. Nobody likes those things, and everyone's going to try and take it down first. Personally, I'd be running the Devastators instead. Still worried about fliers but I think the list looks reasonable and, more importantly, fun to play, which is the whole point of those weekends.

[Demoulius]

Played another game today. Unlike I said in my previous post I only had 1 attack bike, not 2....

 

I played a demon list that had:

Greater demon of Tzeentch with 1 lesser gift (weapon that gives +2S and explodes characters if they die or something) and 2 greater gifts (+1W and IWND)

Herald of Tzeentch on disc

Herald of Tzeentch on foot

Unit of 4 bloatflies (or whatever theyre called, big nurgle flies with plaguebearers on the back)

Unit of 20 Deamonettes

Unit of 15 horrors (Tzeentch herald on foot joined these)

Unit of 10 (or so) plaguebearers

The Defiler deamon thingy with mark of nurgle

 

Il write a batrep tomorrow but at the end of 6th turn I had 3 DC marines left, a immobilized rhino and my MM AB. My opponent had his Plaguebearers left (dident move a muscle all day, they just sat on an objective), his Defiler and a herald who was down to 1 wound and was covering behind some cover.

 

A fun match that was very close :) I lost but horrible dice (and good ones for my opponent) were largely to blame.

[Xenith]

As per the above, dont take just one tank in the army. All the opponent's anti tank will have a field day. Take at least 2 high threat, AV12-13 tanks (vindi, raider, maybe Baal, dread works.) to overwhelm their anti tank.

 

Dread in a pod doesnt work so well in this vein, as the short range anti tank frags the dread, while the long range tackles the vindi.

 

That's why 3 dreads in pods are so brutal.

 

Looking forward to the report.

[Demoulius]

As you guys might have noticed, I dident get around to putting that batrep up yet... Il do that in a bit. I kinda slacked off for to long and now im very strapped for time (ToS is next weekend )

This bring me the problem that I have no time to make any new models so the powerspear/SS combi gets reverted back to the PF sargeant model that I already own. I should still be able to touch up on my models and make them all look abit better. Some of these models have seen better days... (like the metal DC and Reclusiarch...)

Some issues that id like help with:

The tacticals kinda feel out of place. Outside of the fact that their only range is 24 inches a lascannon with bare sargeant probably would work better... What do you guys think?

The furioso dread. Got the chance to give him a few tries. Im worried about the blood talons. They can work like a charm but a single weapon destroyed result kinda makes them useless... Should I give him bloodfists instead? That way he cant barge through endless streams off troops but he can actually also be a threat against 2+ save chars and other walkers that way

Now, onto the batrep:

For terrain we setup mostly ruins, buildings and small industrial terrain pieces. Lots of the board was open to LOS but offered cover to infantry. (at least partially) we rolled ofr night fighting and dident get it but I had first turn. We had normal 12 inch deployment and had 4 objectives (IIRC) I had 2 in my deployment zone, so did my opponent.

I setup my scouts on the objective in a building on my left flank and the DC were behind the building. I used my Vindi and rhino to form a shield for the assault squad, who were setup to the right of that. The tacticals I had setup in the ruin with the 2nd objective. The attack bike was behind the 2nd objective behind the ruin.

Sadly most of the pictures are rather hazy (and hence im not uploading them....sadly they dont show much ) my opponent had the unit of horrors on the opposite side of my scouts, who were in a ruin with an objective. He had his 3 flies to the right of that together with a unit of screamers and herald on disc (forget to mention the screamers) and his greater demon to the right of that behind some cover. Behind a ruin in the far right he had his defiler demon thing and he had his plaguebearers hidden in the ruin itself with his 2nd objective. His deamonettes were in reserve. His herald on disc was with his

He rolled to sieze and dident get it. For red thirst only 1 unit got it (scouts IIRC)

First turn my drop pod came up and scattered off to his table edge, but was still close enough to deploy my furioso next to his greater demon. I shot and hit with the melta and then fumbled a 1 on the to hit roll. The vehicles zoomed up and the jumpers moved forward. Not much shooting was done. Vindi scattered and any wounds that I did manage to do dident leave much of an impression on his army. I send my AB to the right to (hopefully) go deal with that defiler thingy.

Demons first turn, greater demon takes off and flies toward my side of the board. The defiler thingy shoots (and misses) and then charges the drop pod for first blood. His flies come up the middle towards my DC and he tries to charge my DC, but is short an inch or two. His screamers moved up behind his greater demon.

My 2nd turn. Rhino tries to move through a piece of terrain and immobilizes itself. I split up my assault units, DC and chapy charge his flies and the assault squad takes care of the screamers. My AB tries to hit his greater demon (hoped to get a hit to force a ground check thanks to the TLbolters rerolls but dident get it) I also shot at the screamers to thin them abit before the charge. Vindi fires at his horrors and kills a few, nothing spectacular. The Furiosos was swiftly running from the defiler thingy because I just realized I cant touch it in combat I try to charge in on the screamers but am short an inch, did place him that he was behind partial cover in case the defiler thingy tries to shoot at him.

Demon 2nd turn. Combats continue as I wasent able to wipe out anyone. I did do enough damage that my DC manage to wipe out the flies though!! His greater demon charges in on the assault squad who had taken a few of his screamers down. I still had about 4-6 to deal with as well as his herald. I take on the greater demon with SS/powerspear sargeant who at least ensures that I only lose 1 model to him. I reduce his unit to 2-3 screamer and his herald. His nurgle defiler thingy wrecks and blows up my vindi with his autocannon by hitting it in the side. Should watch how I place my tanks a little bit more... Demonettes also came in on this turn and he placed them between my 2 objective buildings.

Blood angels third turn. Move up my DC towards his horrors. Charge them and wipe them. AB Furioso joins in on the combat with the Screamers. All the screamers die but my assault marines are also wasted. Im down to the SP and a single assault marine and the Furioso is no longer in combat. Assault marines flee the scene, but dont run off the board. Most of my shooting went into the demonettes and I managed to take a few down.

Demon third turn, greater demon charges the tacticals, and the demonettes move towards the scouts. Shooting had seen about 6-8 of them dead but there were still plenty left to kill the scouts. Which he did when he charged. Combat with the tacticals and greater demon seems me wound him a few times (yay powerfist!) but I lose about 4 or 5 men. The defiler tried to shoot at the Furioso's rear but the shot scattered (whew)

BA fourth turn. Furioso moving towards the greater demon and tacticals but is about 10 inches away but he cant see through the ruins. I charge the assault marines in on the greater demon. I pop smoke. DC moving back towards the scouts former posistion but need another turn to get there. I spread them out and hope the defiler doesent lance a direct hit.... Tacticals wiped in combat, leaving only the priest and assault marine.

Demon fourth turn. Assault marines wiped in combat. Shot on the DC scatters.

BA fifth turn. Charge the demonettes with the DC and wipe them and charge the furioso (barely) into the greater demon. I reduce him to (IIRC) 1 wound but dont lose the furioso. It does lose an arm though.

Demon fifth turn. Greater demon kills off the Furioso.

BA sixth turn. DC charge the greater demon, who challenges and I accept with the Reclusiarch. Reclusiarch takes about 5 wounds, of which I pass 4. He dies and the demons weapon causes an explosion that wounds everyone (including the demon) who it ends up killing. None of the DC took a hit from that

Demon sixth turn. Not much he can do. He fires at the rhino and fails to do anything.

We dont get a seventh turn. The number of 1's I rolled in this battle when I needed 2's (mostly on meltaguns and powerfists) is absurd. I think in the whole of the battle only the powermaul needed 2's and got them. Every single melta shot fizzled. The plasmagun did get them on the demonettes but dident on the screamers *sigh*

Regardless, a nice match. Gave me something to think about with the Furioso as it couldnt deal with the defiler and it spend the better part of the battle chasing a greater demon who it could hurt, but who could also gravely hurt it.... I used the DC very agressivly in this battle and they managed to wipe out 3 of my opponents units and in the last turn my opponents warlord. Not bad if I do say so myself