Possible hint at answer of Tarvitz outcome?

[Vile Siren]

I think they could have had Rylanor and/or Saul show up again but not living but more as trophies like some random EC went down to the planet to collect Saul head or something like that but I think they are better off dead and not mentioned like everyone is saying, it adds to the tragedy.

[Kol Saresk]

That's why I don't have a problem with Tarik being brought back as a Loyalist tortured soul turned daemon.

[Hyaenidae]

Loken should have stayed dead. Tarvitz better be dead.

 

Rylanor was originally the "question mark". I was fine with him showing back up sometime. When i heard about the Knight Errants heading to Istvaan, I assumed that was the survivor they were looking for, and that would've been cool. Finding Loken though, that just broke my heart.

[Felix Antipodes]

I have no problem with 'a' survivor from Isstvan - and we could be here for ages arguing whether they made the correct choice - but any more would stretch the credibility too far. Not only does it cheapen their sacrifice, it starts us down the slippery slope that comics have descended where a character dies one week and is back the following month.

I take my toy soldiers more serious than that! :-)

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Most of theses comments regarding Tarvitz, you could replace the name with Loken and rewind time 4 years.  Just like back then, they sound good to some but ring hollow to me.  Its not about how he "should" be dead.  The real question should be, "is" he dead.  That the vast majority of readers i speak to in many ways "want"  the dead of Isstvan III to stay dead.  The same ol song about how having survivors "cheapens" the grimdark.  Even though we now know that there were at least two different sets of survivors,  Loken and the ones who were with Morturg, still people say it Tarvitz is dead, for sure.  The confirmed deaths of thousands of heroes is not enough.  Even though we have gotten to know some of them intimately like Demeter, Tameter Torgadden, Ehrlen and Huron-fal, still there is not enough blood and skulls to be tragic enough.  Most feel that there is no reason for Tarvitz to live so why bring him back.  Before Garro: Legion of One, the same thing could have and was said about Loken.  Then a good writer showed people Loken still had some use.  Before this happened  i tried my best to point out the hints already in the story that this must be the case. There were dozens of them but most just choose to keep their head in the sand.  Put their hands over their ears and say bla blabla..... 

 

The same holds true for Tarvitz.  Their are many clues that, if he ends up not living, will be a total waste of ink.  Writers value every word they lay down.  The good ones squeeze multiple meaning out of some at the same time.  To have a scene that could only foreshadow a future and then leave it un fulfilled is the kind of stuff that dose not make it past a good editor because it dose not add to the story.  The scene at the end of Fulgrim with Lucius and Eidolon is a prime example.  Why plant the hint about a secret underground hanger if no one ever uses it?  Another scene, one that was told twice (FotI and Fulgrim) it was so important, is when Tarvitz is talking to Garro after he is saved from pursuit on his way planet side, Isstavan III.  In it Tarvitz makes a  vow to Garro, his Honor-brother, that they will meet again on Terra.  If they don't have a reunion why even waste the effort to write this part into the story?  For the story we know so far, it was totally unnecessary.  If you can even remember it it would just add another grain of Grimdark on to the heaping pile.  This scene and the bit about the Hanger are only important if they are the means of a "resurrection".  Until his death is confirmed i will continue to think he is alive, though i know it will be a lonely wait.

[Hyaenidae]

Though you are welcome to your opinion, and I respect your choice to believe as such, your attitude could be left at the door. Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I'm the babbling, deaf idiot you insinuate I am.

[Augustus]

I could go either way. If he's dead then I get a tragic ignoble death. If he lives I get a bad bad bad hero back.

 

How'd you feel if they recovered his gene-seed and implanted it into another hero along with the other loyalist gene-seed Rylanor was guarding. ? ;). (Theory)

[Molokai]

Well said Heathens, liked.

 

Walkier, you've just insulted the majority of the posters on this thread. Good work.

 

Freedom of thought mate, look into it.

[Kol Saresk]

@Lord Lorne Walkier: Laurie Goulding disagrees with you( and more than a few of the rest of us) on Mortug and crew surviving the Betrayal.

[Emperor's Furor]

I don't think he meant to insult anyone, I think he was trying to get over a point that I tend to agree with. Personally I'm not even sure I understand what he's written that has insulted people.

[Kol Saresk]

 

I don't think he meant to insult anyone, I think he was trying to get over a point that I tend to agree with. Personally I'm not even sure I understand what he's written that has insulted people.

Well, let's put this way. Say you see something in the fluff and you draw one conclusion. I see something else and draw a different conclusion. What would you think if I told you that instead of being entitled to your opinion, that all you are doing is burying your head in the sand and ignoring what is so obvious a caveman can see it?

 

By extension, one could point out that the "obvious" that Loken had an entire building fall on him. He then felt the first impacts of an orbital bombardment hitting right above him. In fact, he could see the light of the falling bombardment, but its impact shifted the rubble and buried him completely. Obviously, he should have been dead.

 

But when we get to Legion of One, the building is now standing with sinkholes inside and rubble from where parts of the roof has fallen in.

 

The "obviousness" of Loken's survival was so much that it reconstituted an entire building.

 

The "obviousness" of Saul Tarvitz' survival is he made an oath. The "obviousness" of his death is he stood at the center of the bombardment's target and sought no shelter.

 

Between those two and Rylanor, Rylanor had a better chance of surviving since he was underground. Actually, he was really the only one who had a chance. And yet, he's the one who has seemed to have turned into a red herring.

 

But that's the thing, it is all "obvious" and then some of it is "obscure", sometimes to the point of being "abstract". So to sit there and then say that one's opinion is fact, is wrong and when phrased that anyone who disagrees is willfully ignorant, it becomes insulting.

 

Until recently I had a line in my sig that said something like "it is amazing how someone can be persecuted for having an opinion." It was also amazing how much that one line seemed to fly sky-high. Most on here assumed that it meant one(or specifically, me) could not disagree with their opinion.

 

That is not what it meant. It meant opinions were opinions, not facts and one should not be persecuted for having a different opinion. It does not mean there should be no disagreements. If there were no disagreements then it would be a fact, not an opinion.

[Emperor's Furor]

Fair enough, however he's right though that if there's a lot of evidence to contradict what everyone keeps telling me is the "best thing to happen" i.e that Tarvitz should be dead and remain dead, then you are kind of ignoring the evidence, albeit I wouldn't say it in the way he did.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Fair enough, however he's right though that if there's a lot of evidence to contradict what everyone keeps telling me is the "best thing to happen" i.e that Tarvitz should be dead and remain dead, then you are kind of ignoring the evidence, albeit I wouldn't say it in the way he did.

There is no evidence, just open interpretation of text taking a page right out of the Emperor's book of Ambiguity.

[Aralon56]

Imo i always thought is should have been Tarvitz they found alive and not Loken i just feel they is still a reckoning between him and Lucius :D.

[Kol Saresk]

There is both evidence for his survival and death. But speaking from my perspective, the deaths(whether real or perceived) of Torgaddon, Tarvitz and Loken quite possibly did more to move me than anything I've read. And that's saying something. Honestly, I kept wondering if maybe somehow Loken survived what even then I saw as an obvious death. Then when I found out he did survive, it honestly did not sit well with me. I had gotten what I had wished for and it sat in my stomach like a bad bean burrito.

[Noserenda]

Yeah the whole Cerberus plot is kinda awful :/ Now Rylanor Guarding Geneseed, (That could then be carted off my Malcador to be mysteriousssss) that wouldve been awesome...

[grand_master85]

I'd have thought that standing in the open whilst a huge orbital bombardment dropped on your head would have been a bit of a giveaway. Tarvitz is dead. We all just need to get over it. It was stretching credibility by bringing back a certain Luna Wolf, but I think it would do Tarvitz a huge disservice by his sacrifice meaning nothing.

 

Between Rylanor and Tarvitz, I think that it was hinted in Galaxy in Flames that the Ancient had somehow managed to find some way to escape by going underground, so it's possible he could return.

[Noctus Cornix]

I'd have thought that standing in the open whilst a huge orbital bombardment dropped on your head would have been a bit of a giveaway. Tarvitz is dead. We all just need to get over it. It was stretching credibility by bringing back a certain Luna Wolf, but I think it would do Tarvitz a huge disservice by his sacrifice meaning nothing.

 

Between Rylanor and Tarvitz, I think that it was hinted in Galaxy in Flames that the Ancient had somehow managed to find some way to escape by going underground, so it's possible he could return.

 

If I had recalled it, I thought the Ancient was standing atop a building or something when the bombardment began. It is how I remember it, there would be no way he could have lived, however I could be totally wrong with that and completely fudging with my memory.

[Barabbas Sogalon]

Rylanor was standing atop a building during the virus bombing/firestorm, not the final bombardment.

[Wade Garrett]

Then a good writer showed people Loken still had some use.

Objection, opposing counsel's statement assumes facts not supported by the record.

 

We already had a character in the Heresy who alternates between "Bargle argle wargle I'm key-razy!" and "My brothers are DEEEAAAD! My father betrayed me! NO ONE CAN UNDERSTAND MY PAIN! NYAAAAGGGGHHH!"

 

His name is Angron.

[thor1234]

As a fan of the Garro  novels, i'll jump in here, I can understand why peole would hate the idea of a fallen Hero resurecting, I for one thought Swallow did it well, I rmember how moving the finall stand on Istavaan III was and how engorssed I got with the novel, But then I remember how happy I was when I leanred Loken survived, I think that if a character is to be 'brought back'  then the back story must viable within the defined perametres of the universe

so can an Astartes survive a building falling on him?

Asnwer: Yes: i refer you to Mephiston (ok he was in a blood fuelled rage when the buillding)

and chaplain Grimaldus in the Black templars, he carries his building around with him!!

 

so we know an Astartes can survive this which is why i dont have a problem with Loken surviving, Tarvitz from what i recall was pretty much in the open when the bombardemnt began, which an Astartes probably couldnt survive....

 

I also think that as the odd reseurection is god for the story, theres nothing like like a lost hero returning in mankind's darkest hour!

 

Though I'd agree that too many returning hereos does ruin the story somewhat....

[depthcharge12]

 

Then a good writer showed people Loken still had some use.

Objection, opposing counsel's statement assumes facts not supported by the record.

We already had a character in the Heresy who alternates between "Bargle argle wargle I'm key-razy!" and "My brothers are DEEEAAAD! My father betrayed me! NO ONE CAN UNDERSTAND MY PAIN! NYAAAAGGGGHHH!"

His name is Angron.

 

In that statement, Angron just sounded like Anakin Skywalker.

[Wade Garrett]

Except in Loken's case not only did a building fall on him, but Horus and Co. nuked the site from orbit just to make sure, which wasn't the situation with Mephiston and Grimmy.

 

@Depthcharge:

 

No, no. Anakin's MOTHER was dead, his brother Obi Wan betrayed him. And prior to becoming cyborg James Earl Jones he never had the emotional range to go "NYAAAAAAGGGHHH!".

[depthcharge12]

It's a fair bet to think Rylanor will come back, but Tarvitz I'm really hoping not, especially since the knights errant didn't pick him up when they grabbed Loken iirc.

 

 

Plus what other purpose would Tarvitz serve in the series? He hasn't been alluded to creating any questionable chapter, or start any other unit such as Morturg has been thought to do.

 

 

It was safe to assume that Loken would come back because of his opening line and the work of the high gods of IP that coordinate this stuff supposedly. It's unfortunate I agree, but it wasn't completely unexpected.

[Joeyray]

Mad cap Mcewans Export induced idea here:

Tarvitz plus those who felt most betrayed end up becoming a proto-legion of the damned, not the most possible idea but the unhonourable destruction of such warriors would surely have some ripples in the warp.