Aegnor Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Loken should've stayed dead. Tarvitz definitely should stay dead. These characters served their purpose. Bringing them back impedes the development of the story, rather than aiding them. It's like reading Game of Thrones and continuing to wish that Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon would somehow turn up alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3591818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 I think Tarvitz should be in Loken's position as of now instead of Loken. Of all the characters I felt the sacrifice of Loken was the most impactful, especially as we'd gotten to know him over 3 books and even more so after the final duel when Torgaddon died. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3591854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Dreadnought Tarvitz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3591909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Dreadnought Tarvitz. Then he will be both dead and alive, which will satisfy both parties :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3591926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I feel that istvaan iii has enough surviving loyalists, travitz was a great character if he returned in dred form or normal form I feel it holds no true part to play, the loyalists EC in sword of truth were tragic enough and same with the outcast dead. We need to move past istvaan iii and focus in survivors from the dropsite massacre. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Loken should've stayed dead. Tarvitz definitely should stay dead. These characters served their purpose. Bringing them back impedes the development of the story, rather than aiding them. It's like reading Game of Thrones and continuing to wish that Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon would somehow turn up alive. Ned and Roberts death were witnessed by credible characters. They are more like Torgodden and Demeter. Tarvitz is like Arias Dance teacher, who when last we saw him was holding a broken wooden practice sword and facing two armed kings guard. Most think he died also, I think he is the same faceless man who gives Aria the coin and tree deaths. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordentHex Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 In collected Visions i believe Tarvets lives, but Rylanor sacrifices himself so that the remaining survivors can escape. I know that the BL HH books have diverged from the collected viions greatly, but in my heart i still follow them instead of the BL fluff. So to me Tarvets is still very much alive and kicking, although he is just not getting any fan service. There is a lot of forshadowing in the BL books that can point to either he is dead or may have lived. Point being we really don't know yet and he just might be one of malcadors Errant knights already but has not been written about at this time. The Garro audio books do tend to skip back and forth in time sequence and leaves the authors openning for just such things to happen. If Tarvets is alive in the BL rendition thats great for me, if not, well, doesn't really matter as i subscribe to older fluff anyways. I get my cake and maybe i get a chance to eat it too. For now though his fate is he died until said otherwise by BL. If fans of the fiction are willing to accept that or wish him back is completely a personal choice until an author puts pen to paper on the subject. We may also honestly never know "officially" and sometimes the mistery of not knowing is just as good or better than knowing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Collected Visions is BL fluff. Also, is this the original edition or the reprint? The reprint does have some revisions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Ned and Roberts death were witnessed by credible characters. They are more like Torgodden and Demeter. Tarvitz is like Arias Dance teacher, who when last we saw him was holding a broken wooden practice sword and facing two armed kings guard. Most think he died also, I think he is the same faceless man who gives Aria the coin and tree deaths. I meant the comparison more in terms of the style of the universes and stories, the vibe if you will, rather than a specific comparison of the likelihood that the specific individuals avoided death. Ned Stark and Loken occupied similar roles - they're the honourable, decent men with who we first see the world the story takes place in. They're thoughtful about their roles and retain their sense of loyalty and right and wrong when everyone around them loses theirs, and when it would have been much safer to go with the crowd. Both try to prevent the treachery of the villains and both fail. The deaths of them both are highlighted as a rubicon for the bad guys to cross that marks their descent into villainy. For the purpose of the story, it was important they die. Westeros and HH/40k universes have in common that such characters usually don't survive - they tend to pay full toll for their ethics. They aren't universes where, in the big scheme of things, the individual good guys somehow subvert fate, and survives so the story can go on. They are universes where the broad sweep of history presses on, crushing the unfortunates who get in their way. Just cos your initial POV character dies, it doesn't mean that the war is over, or the story stops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I understand there is a scene planned where Rylanor walks out of a shower and finds that everything that came after Rouge Trader was a dream ;) As an aside, I faced some fairly hostile posts a few years back when I first suggested the wording left Loken's fate up to interpretation. I don't generally see that sort of thing going on in this section of the board, but we all know how heated it can get elsewhere and it's all too easy to bring unnecessary baggage into a discussion :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molokai Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Yeah, although I think ( in my own humble opinion) that Loken should remain dead, I have to contradict myself and agree with Durfast in what I read. The end of that story was worded so ambiguously that I could see the option of rebirth a mile away. Iirc it doesn't actually say he dies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordentHex Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Collected Visions is BL fluff. Also, is this the original edition or the reprint? The reprint does have some revisions. Original. i cant stand it when the revision stuff like that. its so different than the BL books in some regards...i dont see the point of a revision unless tey changed the whole dang thing.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosco Toppings Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I think that for now he should be referred to as Shroedinger's Tarvitz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Collected Visions is BL fluff. Also, is this the original edition or the reprint? The reprint does have some revisions. Original. i cant stand it when the revision stuff like that. its so different than the BL books in some regards...i dont see the point of a revision unless tey changed the whole dang thing.. The revision was part of the collective effort to male sure that all Heresy material printed by BL has as few inconsistencies as possible. And it wasn't the only thing revised. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Collected Visions is BL fluff. Also, is this the original edition or the reprint? The reprint does have some revisions. Original. i cant stand it when the revision stuff like that. its so different than the BL books in some regards...i dont see the point of a revision unless tey changed the whole dang thing.. Well i have the original version of the Collected Visions and i can assure you that it dose not say that Tarvitz lived, as much as i would love for it to be so. Pg 230 The Collected visions. An eerie calm settled over Isstvan III and this worried Tarvitz even more than the relentless attacks by the traitors had done. He was deeply suspicious of the traitors retreat. Horus must have some new evil to vest upon us he thought. His mind ran through a host of imagined scenarios, desperately trying to work out which it was that he and his men should prepare for. He cast his thoughts back to the begining and suddenly realized what was about to befall them. As he began to warn his troops the first missiles of the orbital bombardment tore down through the clouds above to strike the ruined city. Within seconds the entire region became a churning, rolling miasma of explosions, heat and fire. It would be a miracle if any of the loyalists could survive this onslaught. This passage is pretty close to the end of GiF and most i feel will point to this and say see, he is dead. I on the other hand use this as one of my clues that he made it. The last sentence of the paragraph says "It would be a miracle if any of the loyalists could survive". And i think that is just what they received, a Miracle. I don't think like some, that the loyalists quickly ran to cover, there was no time for that. Nor do i believe that the building they were in was enough to protect them. I don't even think they got lucky, not enough luck in all the universe to save them. I think they were given answer to their "prayers" for a "miracle". The universe of 40k is dominated by extreme technology. Space ships and laser bolts, Plasma generators and Anti-gravitation. The main thing that sets 40k above other similar universe is that there is also an equal amount of "fantasy". Gods are real. Daemons, Angles, spirits, magic, sorcery rituals all exist. Literally anything goes, even time travel. In a universe like this, how can people say X can't happen? Given parameters like this a good writer can easily figure out a way to keep Tarvitz and co alive, if they want to. I believe they do want to keep Tarvitz alive, as he along with Garro and Varren have been named as survivors of Isstvan III from the very beginning, when the Horus Heresy was first thought up at the start of 2nd Edition. I also think i know how they will do it, Divine Intervention. The Emperor may be a God or not, but he has God like powers. I think his most impressive powers are not his psychic abilities but his knowledge of science. This is how i think he effects the galaxy and also how i believe he saves his sons on Isstavan III. We all know that he created the Astartes to be his army to concur the galaxy and he bestowed upon them incredible powers. They have many organs, durability and psychical strength. In addition to that he gave each legion further specialized powers. Invisibility to the XIX, hyper psychic power to XV, Bazerker rage to the XII and vampirism to the IX. (Here is where i really get off into the weeds)... Even though he created the Astartes, i think that he never fully trusted them. He knew that blanket trust in a group so large would be foolish. I think that he gene coded other powers into the Astartes that he could not trust them to use but knew that some day he would need. He stuck these powers deep down in their new DNA and buried them with psycho-conditioning. They would only surface when a set of events happen that would both prove them worthy of the powers and loyal beyond question. I think Isstvan III was the event that unlocked a hidden power with in the Loyalists and i think the power was the Shrouding. The older versions of the Grey Knight power Shrouding would be the perfect way to keep one alive from a Orbital bombardment. This is the way the Emperor Protects. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 That makes about as much sense as the idea that Tarvitz survived because Colm Corbec and "Try Again" Bragg pulled him into a blue police box before the missiles hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 The old fluff also swore up and down that Corax would make clones, not a super-accelerated implantation process. Look how that turned out. Ultimately, relying on a miracle is..... "iffy". He did not give "vampirism" to the IX Legion for example. They did that themselves when they took the blood of a Primarch and injected it into their veins. What they didn't realize is that their bodies were incapable of sustaining such a thing. As a result, we see the Red Thirst form. And the Black Rage is a result of the shared blood again as it allowed every single Blood Angel to not feel the death of their Primarch, but have it imprinted on both themselves and the gene-seed, forever tainting the line of Sanguinius. And it goes on and on. As for the XV being "super-psykers", no. Actually, I don't think we are told that the Pre-Prospero XV was psyker heavy. IIRC, it was rampant with mutation from the gene-seed. The "crap ton of psykers" came from the fact that the population of Prospero had a well-above average ratio of psykers compared to norms. Even then, they still aren't "super-psykers". But due to the knowledge and training they go through, they do typically have more methods to use their powers, thus creating the appearance of being more powerful. Also, the powers aren't even necessarily unique. Corax has invisibility. So does Curze. The Raven Guard have an affinity for infiltrating. If Zso Sahaal and his shadow quiet armor and shadow quiet jumpack that has invisible flames, not to mention their rules for stealth and infiltration combined with growing up on a world of darkness is anything to go by, so do the Night Lords. The World Eaters have berzerker rages. So do the Space Wolves. And it goes on and on. 30K/40K is a universe of science fiction and fantasy, true. It is also a universe that is described as "grim" and "dark" and pretty much invented the phrase "grimdark". If there was a going to be a miracle, it would have been when Decius was praying to the God-Emperor while he was on his deathbed on Luna. Instead the only miracle he saw came from Nurgle, not the Emperor. Even the Emperor admits he is not all-powerful. So relying on that is..... well you can do it but I wouldn't recommend it and I definitely would not tell anyone who didn't share the same line of thinking that they are willfully ignorant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If there was a going to be a miracle, it would have been when Decius was praying to the God-Emperor while he was on his deathbed on Luna. Instead the only miracle he saw came from Nurgle, not the Emperor. Even the Emperor admits he is not all-powerful. So relying on that is..... well you can do it but I wouldn't recommend it and I definitely would not tell anyone who didn't share the same line of thinking that they are willfully ignorant. I thought of it that way, until they the whole remembrancer bit praying to the Emperor and banishing a daemon thanks to the aquila. It didn't make sense to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If there was a going to be a miracle, it would have been when Decius was praying to the God-Emperor while he was on his deathbed on Luna. Instead the only miracle he saw came from Nurgle, not the Emperor. Even the Emperor admits he is not all-powerful. So relying on that is..... well you can do it but I wouldn't recommend it and I definitely would not tell anyone who didn't share the same line of thinking that they are willfully ignorant. I thought of it that way, until they the whole remembrancer bit praying to the Emperor and banishing a daemon thanks to the aquila. It didn't make sense to me. Ever heard of latent psykers? There's a reason they are usually considered dangerous. There's also the fact that we don't know how the whole "Saint" thing works in 40K. It could be "good daemons", as part of theory there is good in the warp. It could be something else. It could be an avatar of the Emperor's Will Made Manifest. We don't know. But it is kind of weird that someone so far away gets a miracle and yet the one person that could have used it that was right in the Emperor's backyard got nothing. Assuming that it was an Emperor-given miracle not something else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If there was a going to be a miracle, it would have been when Decius was praying to the God-Emperor while he was on his deathbed on Luna. Instead the only miracle he saw came from Nurgle, not the Emperor. Even the Emperor admits he is not all-powerful. So relying on that is..... well you can do it but I wouldn't recommend it and I definitely would not tell anyone who didn't share the same line of thinking that they are willfully ignorant. I thought of it that way, until they the whole remembrancer bit praying to the Emperor and banishing a daemon thanks to the aquila. It didn't make sense to me.Ever heard of latent psykers? There's a reason they are usually considered dangerous.There's also the fact that we don't know how the whole "Saint" thing works in 40K. It could be "good daemons", as part of theory there is good in the warp. It could be something else. It could be an avatar of the Emperor's Will Made Manifest. We don't know. But it is kind of weird that someone so far away gets a miracle and yet the one person that could have used it that was right in the Emperor's backyard got nothing. Assuming that it was an Emperor-given miracle not something else. Lol...hide your power level...just like dragonball z Or maybe doctor who came by and pulled Tarvitz into his telephone box and yoinked him out of there Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I'm pretty sure Dragonball Z was more like "Power level not high enough? Fart in three thousand Gs until you're stronger!" And if you were a real fan you'd know "Doctor Who" is a question. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If I've got the timeline straight, the daemon banishment happened before the Emperor was tied up with keeping the Legions of Hell from exploding out of his basement. Decius's travails were while he was so occupied. My opinion of the matter can be summed up by this exchange in Void Stalker: "Th-the Emperor protects!" "It would seem that sometimes, he really does." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabadin Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Another thing that can be used towards the "Tarvitz lives" theory is from Sword of Truth when Garro asks the Emperors Children leader if he knows the fate of Tarvitz and just gets the cryptic "I can't say" response. Which in most cases had been used as "yes, but we're not ready to tell you yet" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If I've got the timeline straight, the daemon banishment happened before the Emperor was tied up with keeping the Legions of Hell from exploding out of his basement. Decius's travails were while he was so occupied. My opinion of the matter can be summed up by this exchange in Void Stalker: "Th-the Emperor protects!" "It would seem that sometimes, he really does." Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole Legion of Hell thing began after Magnus tore up the Throne Room, right? So correct me if I'm wrong again, but that happened before Istvaan III, correct? So if that line of thinking is correct, then Decius would happen after the Legions of Hell started breaking through. Unless there was another Outcast Dead moment I missed somewhere. Right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I think that for now he should be referred to as Shroedinger's TarvitzNow I have a name for a dreadnought Tarvitz Schrödinger. Or maybe Saul Schrödinger. It wouldn't be so obvious that way. That's why I don't have a problem with Tarik being brought back as a Loyalist tortured soul turned daemon.Tarik Torgaddon? I think little Horus would be the better fit. He is the tortured soul among the remains of the Mournival after the double date duel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286638-possible-hint-at-answer-of-tarvitz-outcome/page/3/#findComment-3592638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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