Why do people want Turn 2?

[Kilofix]

Ok maybe a stupid question but why do people prefer to take Turn 2?

 

I'm assuming that it is only the case if you have mid ranged weapons and want the enemy to have moved closer by the time it is your turn. Otherwise, if your opponent has like IG artillery, then no way you'd want him to start pie-plating you first right?

 

Or, am I missing something else here?

 

Thanks for the insight.

[Brother Tyler]

I want to take Turn 2 because it means that I survived Turn 1.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I'm assuming you mean going second. Going second means you always get the last turn of the game, for one thing.

 

Also, and this pertinent on a Space Marine forum, you can null-deploy and force your opponent to waste a turn.

[Warsmith Aznable]

It could be the case that you prefer their Reserves to come in before yours. Or that you have Inflitrators you want to be able to assault on your first move. Or that your opponent has a lot in Reserves, so you feel safe waiting to see what their approach is going to be. Or that you feel you have the advantage in a defensive/reactive scenario.

[Axagoras]

With drop pods I always want to go first, but if I end up going second I can make assault with my chapter master and bikers

[Shiodome]

for myself i often choose to go 2nd if it's an objective game, so that i can either react to my opponents last second dash to grab/contest an objective or if an objective is vulnerable grab contest it myself with a decent chance the opponent won't be able to do anything about it.  

 

objectives win games, so it's a pretty important thing to consider.

[Fibonacci]

So I can get first blood when my interceptor fire takes out a drop pod.

 

So Saint Celestine can stand up on the last turn and deny an objective.

 

So I can see which side the Taudar are going to castle up on before deploying.

[Kaedes Nex]

With drop pods I always want to go first, but if I end up going second I can make assault with my chapter master and bikers

 

See, if it's something like Eldar or Tau, going first with drop pods means their skimmers can't jink.

 

But I thought going second even with drop pods is really good, because you get all the advantages of going second, AND you burn their first turn. Now they have one whole turn less than you of shooting, because during their first turn, they had nothing to shoot at.

[Axagoras]

Not nothing to shoot at, full pod lists are extremely hit or miss so I run khan, 5 grav bikers, 4 hyperios, and a iron hands smash kill :P

[DarkGuard]

Most of the time people will choose to go second for reaction. They can react to their opponent moves, including late ditch objective grabs, and you can also make your own last turn objective grabs, which is a massive advantage.

 

It allows you to react better with your own reserves, while flier wise it's often better to bring on your own flier second so you get the first shot on an opposing flier.

 

There's many different reasons as to why one would prefer to go second, and going first is certainly not a no brainer.

[greggles]

Some people also choose to go second, because they have a 4+ to seize.  Heck even normally, it's still a 16% or so chance.  Going second and then seizing can be utterly devastating to your opponent.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Some people also choose to go second, because they have a 4+ to seize.  Heck even normally, it's still a 16% or so chance.  Going second and then seizing can be utterly devastating to your opponent.

 

That's true. I've long thought that the way the initiative advantage should work is allowing the winner to choose which side he wants, force the loser to deploy first, then let the winner go first.

[Grey Mage]

It should never be an automatic thing, but always tailored against how the enemy deployed and the kind of list theyre fielding. There are often many advantages to the enemy going first- bringing them more in range, denying them the advantages of a well hidden deployment, getting last turn objective grabs, increasing the chances their flyers will come in before yours, increasing the chances their deep strikers will come in before yours, getting a feel for what your opponent means to do with certain key units, forcing them to commit before you do.... etc etc.

 

Sometimes its all trivial, and the big gun wins, but if youre playing tactically then its a consideration like everything else.

 

Oh, and if youre reasonably sure you can seize, why not?

[Brother Casman]

I would like to provide a note of caution, though. Going first usually means that you're setting the tempo of the game, at least to start. If you can keep the tempo up, often the second player is forced to react to what you're doing. Going second means that you're going to want to reset the tempo at some point and force your opponent to react to you. Now, the dice gods will always have a say in this, but dictating the pace of the game is often advantageous regardless.

[Kilofix]

I don't really have flyers and I mostly rely on a Firestorm Redoubt with Intercept for AA.

 

So my strategy has always been; go first whenever possible, inflict as much damange to his key units (scoring or heavies) as early as possible, try to get First Blood, push my opponent into a corner so that he can't react or get out of his deployment, try to get line breaker, use the Firestorm and a small reserve to shoot down anything that DeepStrikes or Outflanks.

 

I'm been doing the above regardless of how many units I or my opponent may be reserving.

 

In retrospect though, I see that the above only really works when I have bigger guns than my opponent and when my opponent has most of his force already on the table.

 

Going forward, I'll need to more strongly consider going second (along with also reserving a larger portion of my force) if I think my opponent has bigger guns and / or if I think my opponent is also going to reserve the majority of his force.

 

Thanks for the opinions!

[Brother Icculus]

I enjoy going second if only for the opportunity to deploy second. I like to see where my opponent deploys and then deploy in response. It helps if someone has some very long range artillery or snipers that you would like to hide from. 

 

But I also agree with the sentiment that getting the last turn in the game is pretty nice. 

[Captain Idaho]

Against Tau and Imperial Guard, particularly when you roll that stupid short table edge deployment, going second is a death knell for your army.

 

With Drop Pods this can be reduced but the point stands - the game needs re balancing.

 

Anyway, in more balanced match ups it can be beneficial to see where opponents deploy, and often take the last turn in a game. It's always nice when your opponent takes first turn but is too far away to do much and you end up hitting them hard because you were able to move up in your turn.

[Kaedes Nex]

Yeah I see a lot of people singing praises for going second, and I understand the advantages it has, but surviving/giving free alpha strike is tough against certain armies.

[GreyCrow]

Choosing between going first or second always depends on 4 things :

- What game type it is

- Your army build

- The opponent's army build

- The terrain

 

The reasoning behind going first is that you think you can maximize your damage output on Turn 1, and cripple the enemy's army before they even get to play. This is a sound strategy, but you can't be sure it will be the case all the time !

 

Much like the Roman Legions of old, the space marine army is a meatgrinder. It's a resilient army, which will wither down the opponent every turn in a methodical force. However, its range of effectiveness is relatively short, around 12-24" for most of the army !

 

If you go first and you have a smart opponent, they will try to deny you the opportunity to be effective in your first turn. That means deploying far away in their backfield, so you are forced to advance, and that even with a Rhino you will not be able to get into Rapid Fire range in Turn 1.

 

With a balanced Marines list, that has both long, medium and short range weapons, the rule of thumb I found effective when playing was the following :

- Against assault based armies : Go first, and unload everything you have on them. Long range weapons to cripple vehicles and heavy support, medium range to damage their infantry. But keep at least a full round of movement before they can assault you, so you can get a second volley in before they charge.

- Against shooting based armies : Go second, and keep some of your force in reserve, and try to force them to break their formation if they want to have an effective fire strategy. Use your Fast moving elements to destroy their main threats (Leman Russ, Hammerheads, etc) until it's time for you to press forward.

- Against balanced armies : It depends on the mission type, and try to segment the battlefield into multiple fronts.

 

All in all, there is no mathematical way to play W40k, and there should be no automatic response. Every army, even the best tailored ones, have strengths AND weaknesses. The goal is to capitalize on your strengths and protect your weaknesses, or use them as bait for your opponent.

 

I play with Raven Guard rules, and it is tempting to charge forward with the scout rule to get that Alpha strike ! But depending on the mission, it is sometimes better to go second and rely on positionning rather than face to face encounter.

In other missions, I remember rushing my scouting rhino sternguard straight to the middle of the table while the rest of my army would lag behind. That way, I was able to secure a critical piece of cover, and create a threat bubble that effectively slowed down an assault based Chaos Army.

 

______

 

To sum up, in every battle and in every army, you HAVE to think with waves of attacks. Because when you commit a unit for a certain wave, they have to be loaded out to carry out their role in that wave well. However, that means that they won't be able to perform effectively in other waves, which require a different type of skills and weaponry.

 

Thinking all about the first wave will mean that you only get one chance to do it right. And if they fail, you'll be wide open for the counter attack.

The typical example is Drop Podded sternguards with combi-meltas. You drop them in, they pop something up, kill off a few units, but you can be damn sure that they WILL die in the next turn. If you don't have a second wave to carry on where they left, you're sure that they died for nothing.