What do GK competitive lists look like nowadays?

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

they are also worth 3 psyk dice each squad

 

Sadly not.

 

Psykers have the BoP rule, so each squad of them only generates a single WC.  Regardless of how many of them in the Squad.

 

So two max, from Psykers and Razorback.

[cyborgcommunist]

Would a list made of maxing out on our "good" units work?

 

3 Stormravens and 3 Teleporter NDKs?

[jeffersonian000]

Would a list made of maxing out on our "good" units work?

 

3 Stormravens and 3 Teleporter NDKs?

Yes, although it gives up our advantage in the Psychic phase by putting all your points in 6 units.

 

SJ

[IndigoJack]

I don't think 3 stormravens and 3 NDKs would fair any better in 7th than it did in 6th. You simply won't have the bodies to outscore a lot of armies nor the firepower to eliminate enough of them.

 

This is the list I've been running, and it's been doing pretty well:

 

Coteaz

 

5x purifers, 3x halberds, 2x psycannons, psyback

 

10x strikes, 2x psycannons, psybolt ammo, rhino

 

10x strikes, 2x psycannons, psybolt ammo, rhino

 

4x acolytes, 3x plasma guns, 1x bolter, pskyer, psyback

 

4x acolytes, 3x meltaguns, 1x bolter, pskyer, psyback

 

5x acolytes, 5x bolters, psyker, psyback

 

5x acolytes, 5x bolters, psyker, psyback

 

stormraven, TLLC, TLMM

 

psyfleman

 

Inquisition Detachment

 

OX Inq, 3x servo-skulls, power armour, psyker

 

4x acolytes, 3x flamers, 1x bolter, psyker, valkyrie, MRP, sponson HBs

 

 

14 objective secured units is a lot to deal with, and few armies can cut through this much armor fast enough. With the exception of the plasma (and sometimes the melta) pskyer, I'm usually casting psychic shriek. Psychic shriek is an amazing power, and a great way to deal with tau (provided you can get close enough). I would say my hardest match-up is serpent spam, since they can get a lot of scoring units as well, combined with the serpents durability and its mobility, it's tough to put a hurt on enough of them in low objective missions.

[jeffersonian000]

I only see 9 OS units.

 

SJ

[IndigoJack]

I only see 9 OS units.

 

SJ

strikes + rhino = 3 (combat squaded to maximize scoring), two units of those makes 6,

4 units of henchman + transports = 8,

8 + 6 = 14

 

Even without combat squads I still have 12 (unit + transport).

[Captain Coolpants]

Is there such thing as a competitive PURE knights list? The only competitive thing we have in my opinion are psydreads due to Hull point stripping. It's a sad time indeed when a simple auto cannon is better at taking out armour that a mighty lascannon

[Valerian]

Well, in fairness, it isn't just a simple auto cannon, it is an auto cannon that has been enhanced with special psy-powered ammunition, and you're getting four twin-linked shots from the same platform.  If we had a 4x shot twin-linked lascannon platform, I'm sure it would do just fine in the hull-stripping and vehicle destroying department, too.

 

V

[Quozzo]

Well, in fairness, it isn't just a simple auto cannon, it is an auto cannon that has been enhanced with special psy-powered ammunition, and you're getting four twin-linked shots from the same platform.  If we had a 4x shot twin-linked lascannon platform, I'm sure it would do just fine in the hull-stripping and vehicle destroying department, too.

 

V

I think that's the point. Lascannons are not two shots, just one. Making it less likely to get the pen or strip HP off, but the auto cannon comes with two shots and with psybolts is only 1S less than the weapon dedicated to destroying weapons. Lascannons obviously cant be imporoved by the same method and so fall short of the function they're supposed to do.

[march10k]

 

 

 

Flyrants aren't that much of a problem anymore, mostly due to GW robbing them of Biomancy access. It still irks me that a Daemon Prince has a better statline than a Flyrant for a similar price, but also has an Invuln save.

 

Terminators is something I like using in low point games (My 500pt list has a unit of GKT with Psycannon in it), so that sounds like a plan.

 

Flyrants are stupid awesome.  At least the dakka flyrant is.  12 shots that you can't hide from, and it's impossible to shoot back.  I had Belial win two melees with 6-wound TMCs, only to get caught in the open because he finished one combat on the wrong player turn...dakka flyrant, that he couldn't charge, of course, hosed him down for the win.  Now, Belial did his job, reaping nine TMC wounds, but...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Oh yeah, Dakka Flyrant is still a thing. But I still see some people run bonesword+lash whip build on him sometimes. At least they make you land first before you can charge. 

[cyborgcommunist]

I'm curious but would a list mixing 3 of our units work?

 

So like Crowe with 10 purifiers combat squadded with 5 Termies and 10 Interceptors with 2 Psyflemen as fire support.

 

Or would it be better to just run Crowe with 20 combat squadded Purifiers and 10 Interceptors with the 2 Dreads

[Ozshock]

so long as you have a purpose for each squad...they need to be able to support each other...

 

Dreds can look after themselves, hide them behind cover and they can pay for themselves too

 

Purifiers are good combat squadded in a rhino like ive talked about in other posts...use 5 to block a horde army...get 2-3 cleansing flames on a forward moving tide...works very well, and psycans are good mid range

 

Interceptors are great for getting a weak spot...shunt them over and blast away, but dont leave them exposed...

 

you would have to try it out and see how it goes

[IndigoJack]

Purifers are excellent and can handle themselves fine. I use mine as second wave firepower and midfield counter assault. You don't really need crowe for them at all though since they're always scoring. And while OS purifiers is pretty sweet, it's really not worth taking crowe to get it.

[cyborgcommunist]

I'm taking Crowe to have the purifiers be troops, though terminators are ok.

 

But is 10 of each too few numbers to have a difference? I know the Psyfleman works well, but not sure about Termies nor Purifiers

[mcpolle]

I LOVE Purifiers, with a big fat LOVE, personally for me, they are awesome, I take 1 or maybe 2 combat squads in a rhino, then they can come on in reserve where you need em, and if the enemy is on you, then you have 2 Cleansing flames coming in hot, which is very awesome.

Plus they are fearless, so you have to kill all of em.

 

Polle

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm taking Crowe to have the purifiers be troops, though terminators are ok.

 

Please don't. Take Coteaz, take Psyker+2 Acolyte Henchmen MSU for Troops if you have to, but for the love of the Throne don't use Crowe. He's 150points of garbage that we never needed before and he's utterly pointless now. 

 

Purifiers don't need to be Troops, they have zero real competition in Elites. Paladins haven't been a thing since Riptides showed up, and their downgrading from characters and the new wound allocation rules have nerfed them into the ground. Cheap AP2 is plentiful this edition and its never been easier to strip cover...I mean I can barely justify our Troop Terminators these days. 

 

 

With regards to building a 'competitive' list, forget it. We're too expensive, too low model count, and we don't have the tricks of other armies. As Allies, we're pretty awesome as a hard-counter to Daemons and for a melee component that still shoots hard for shooty lists (AM love us in that regard). Barring some major overhaul in the new 7th edition codex, I don't see us rising above second-string tier. We're good, don't get me wrong, and Knights stomp bad lists all day no problem. But the true cancer of Serpent Spam, TripTide, Air Cron, FMC spam etc will roll over even our most carefully constructed lists. 

 

Build a list you like, have fun with it. If you're going to a tournament, take us as Allies to handle Daemon Factory lists, and of course for the Dreadknight (because he's awesome). Taking even a hybrid Henchmen+Knights list is gonna be hard mode (you'll dominate the Psychic phase, have plenty of cheap scoring+shooting, and Knights for your solid melee punch, but your list still dies to mass fire). Pure Knights at a tournament is basically impossible mode (any AP2 they bring is solid gold). 

[cyborgcommunist]

Ah well, I will have to wait for the 7th ed codex now the. I'm still running my Draigowing because it's still epic fun

[HiveFleetKelari]

 

With regards to building a 'competitive' list, forget it. We're too expensive, too low model count, and we don't have the tricks of other armies. As Allies, we're pretty awesome as a hard-counter to Daemons and for a melee component that still shoots hard for shooty lists (AM love us in that regard). Barring some major overhaul in the new 7th edition codex, I don't see us rising above second-string tier. We're good, don't get me wrong, and Knights stomp bad lists all day no problem. But the true cancer of Serpent Spam, TripTide, Air Cron, FMC spam etc will roll over even our most carefully constructed lists. 

 

This. A thousand times. I started playing back when we were Daemonhunters, but stepped away from 40k until the beginning of 6th Edition. I love the new plastic models (and people hate on the NDK, but I like it) and really liked the 5th Edition codex when I got back into the game. In the beginning of 6th I was able to dominate (Terminator armor is boss against power weapons), but as AP 2 became cheaper and more prevalent, my lists became weaker and weaker.

 

I keep scouring forums for advice on how to make a pure Knights list work and every forum and thread I visit always devolves into a "how should Grey Knights be fixed" discussion instead of a "how do we make Grey Knights work" discussion. This leads me to believe that a pure Knights list isn't going to work in the current edition. We simply lack the ranged, high S, low AP toys that so many other armies can bring. So as an all-comers army, we fall short. But against Daemons, man, do we bring the pain.

[jeffersonian000]

Pure GK players aren't all about bringing the better list, they are about being the better player. Thinking ahead, having a flexible strayegy, knowing how to prioritize, playing to the mission, and most importantly, making less mistakes than their opponent.

 

I still play TDA-heavy, despite knowing full well how much of a disadvantage that puts me in points efficiency, in mobility, and in resiliency. Yet ... I can still win. I know my army, I understand the toolbox I've selected to work the problem of the game. I feel that the less mistakes I made in executing each game turn while sticking to a Turn 6-7 game plan, I can turn a loss into a draw, or a draw into a win.

 

How do I do this? By not wedding myself to any one tactic. Psycannons are more flexible than Incinerators, so even my Interceptors have Psycannons. Nemesis Great Swords are nice, but those extra points saved mean one more model somewhere else. Also, I don't play to win, I play to prevent my opponent from winning (subtle difference, yet an important one).

 

As I always say: Play, just play. Get as many games in as you can with the same army, only make small adjustments at a time between games to refine your options rather than tailoring for specific opponents. This will make you a better player as you learn your play style and become better at using your toolbox.

 

SJ

[IndigoJack]

I see you're a fan of game theory, jeffersonian

[jeffersonian000]

I see you're a fan of game theory, jeffersonian

"Games and Theory? That's Military Intelligence!"

 

SJ

[lt051]

Sort of on topic, what's the general consensus on jokero? I've wanted to try running 2 per 10 man henchmen squad, but have never gotten around to getting the models, are they worth the high points cost?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I keep scouring forums for advice on how to make a pure Knights list work and every forum and thread I visit always devolves into a "how should Grey Knights be fixed" discussion instead of a "how do we make Grey Knights work" discussion. This leads me to believe that a pure Knights list isn't going to work in the current edition. We simply lack the ranged, high S, low AP toys that so many other armies can bring. So as an all-comers army, we fall short. But against Daemons, man, do we bring the pain.

 

I'd add that in friendly or casual games, we're considered strong and we most definitely do stomp terrible lists without much effort. Our warp charge generation, our melee and shooting being above-average for Marines, Troop Terminators, DK's etc do present issues to lists that don't bring AP2 or power weapons. And yeah, Daemons lose on deployment against us haha. 

Pure GK players aren't all about bringing the better list, they are about being the better player. Thinking ahead, having a flexible strayegy, knowing how to prioritize, playing to the mission, and most importantly, making less mistakes than their opponent.

 

All that stuff matters, but here is the thing. If both players do exactly that, and are otherwise equal in skill and insight into how 40k works, a Tau army constructed properly beats a Knight army largely on deployment. Riptides, Heldrakes etc and so on are just that strong and GW have tilted xenos into a very strong position in 6/7th (Tyranids notwithstanding, although they do have an FMC spam build that works okay). I've beaten Double-Tide once using better deployment, and smart moves, but I also got really lucky too. 

 

That's my issue with Knights. I love the army to death, and I'm gonna keep playing them. But you cannot ignore that all things being equal, we're on the back foot against Tau, Crons, Eldar, CSM (their good build). Against everyone else, yeah sure I'll run pure Knights and expect a decent matchup. But not those top-tier armies, not if they're constructed and played right. They dismantle us Turn 1 and proceed to annhilate you over the next few turns. Its painful and boring. 

 

Which I why I'd really advise all of us to consider mixing Henchmen mech into our builds. Henchmen offer everything we lack, they're 'in faction', and they only eat Troops slots. 

Sort of on topic, what's the general consensus on jokero? I've wanted to try running 2 per 10 man henchmen squad, but have never gotten around to getting the models, are they worth the high points cost? 

 

What, 2 per squad? Throne no. They're massively overcosted, you're better off running PsyDreads if you want some long-range shooting. 

 

But what if....

 

WHAT IF EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED CAME TRUE!

 

HQ:

 

Dr Zaius

(100 points)

 

Troops:

 

(6) 6x Monkey Warriors, 2x Psykers

(230 points each)

 

Total: 1,480 points

 

Changed to add Psykers. 

[Ozshock]

HAHA...i think just putting 41 monkies on the board and ur opponent is gonna be "golly gee is that?

 

i actually like using Jokaero, purely because we lack some hard hitting long range AP2...S8 autocannons are great against lighter armour, as in AV12 or worse, but they do far worse against AV13+...and they arent AP2 so cant blow up a vehicle

 

Jokaero give access to the only lascannons in the codex...and taking 2 of them gives you a better chance of rolling something useful on the chart...my Favs are increased range and rending, as i usually run them with some plasma servs, making S7 rending all round the army...

 

but the chart isnt the primary reason i take them...dont use them in a CC unit...or not even a shorter range unit or they fire snapshots...and always put a psyker in the unit to give them rerolls to hit