Surrender_Monkey Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 My club has a 1750pt Tournament coming up at the end of March, and I'm using it as an excuse to finally finish my Ravenwing Army, which I have resumed painting in earnest. The one thing that always troubles me when drawing up a list is anti-air, I've drawn up a rough army list which has left me with 185pts which I could potentially spend on AA, but I'm wondering whether I really need it? I thought I'd run through my options and see what your thoughts are: 1) Nephilim Jetfighter. I've always thought the DA aircraft were overpriced and not particularly good at their job, if the Nephilim were a bit cheaper or could swap out it's Heavy Bolters for something with higher strength things might be different. I'm also looking at having only one with the points I have, and getting the points for a second would mean dropping some stuff out of my list (probably attack bikes or black knights) which I don't really want to do. 2) Aegis Line and someone to man it. For 185pts I could get an Aegis Line with Quad gun plus five scouts to man it, I've got the points to give the scouts a Flakk Missile, camo cloaks and sniper rifles for good measure. To me this option has two problems. Firstly it's going to get left behind since the rest of my army wants to get forward, this leaves the scouts open to being killed by deep strikers and on Hammer & Anvil it would be quite possible for enemy aircraft to arrive out of range but still attack my bikes. The second problem is that they're not very threatening if my enemy doesn't have aircraft, unlike my Crimson Fists I don't have any other infantry to take advantage of the Aegis and the scouts probably wont accomplish much. 3) Contemptor Mortis. I've been looking at getting one of these for a while now, since I think they're a fantastic model and FW isn't a problem for the tournament or friendly games where I play either. Taking two TL Autocannons would come out cheaper than the Aegis line and pose a similar threat to aircraft and light vehicles, but it still suffers from the problem of being left behind and vulnerability to deep strikers. I could also spring for the Lascannons, which would be useful since the rest of my Anti Tank fire is short range. 4) Nothing at all. For the points I would spend on AA I could get a couple of Land Speeders (looking at 3 with Double Heavy Bolter for fire support) or some more Black Knights. Against a flyer heavy enemy I would have to play aggressive and try to cripple his army in the first couple of turns, fortunately the speed of bikes means I should be on top of him by turn 2. Still, against a list with two Heldrakes I would probably suffer badly. 5) Any suggestions. I am not that familiar with the FW range so I bet they have some other AA options to offer, but I will stipulate I am keen to keep this a pure Dark Angels for the time being. Allying in someone like White Scars or Tau might be a long term option, but not going to happen by late March. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Have you considered a FW Landspeeder Tempest? They get an assault canon and twin-linked ML (if memory serves) and they can shoot down aircraft with their new rules. It may fit your theme, there would be points left over too, I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3591872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrender_Monkey Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Looks promising, any idea what book the latest rules are in? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3591885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Imperial Armour 2 revised edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3591905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 it really depends on what fliers your facing and how the setup happens. The only thing I don't like about the ADL is that you place it on the board after you pick sides and BEFORE terrain is placed. The person your facing could then place a big building right in front on your ADL totally blocking all LOS. Its a jerk thing to do but thats how it is in the rules atm. the contempter dread is one of my favorites but some ppl QQ about forge world so may keep that in mind unless they are cool with it. the Nephilim Jetfighter is a good flier but its no were near the top tier like helldrake and the others so make sure you support it and don't try to do anything amazing with it. I would look at what kind of armies (with fliers) before deciding what to take to counter it. There are more things you can take to counter fliers than what you posted here as well (just to keep a list from ppl that come in later) -ADL: you already know about this. -Contemptor Mortis: you know as well. -Nephilim Jetfighter and dark talon: you talked about the neph but don't forget of the dark talon. So lets assume that you are running Dakka banner (maybe) in your list. all fliers have a max of 12 AV and mostly 10 rear armor. If you were to get near rear armor with the dark talon and be in 12" of the dakka pole thats 24 twin linked bolter shots from a flier shooting at another flier. Yes at str 4 you need 6s but its something. (not the best by no means but food for thought) -Divination: is a great start and it can be used to counter way more than just fliers. (great force multiplier) -codex Inquistion: you can bring in Valkyries for 100 points base + 12 points (for the "troops" inside) -Ally with codex marines: you would be able to bring storm talons, stalker, hunter, and storm ravens. Another thought would be dev centurions. Even though centurions don't have anti air, you mix them with divination and they will kill anything in 1 turn. It may not be fluffy with your list if your running ravenwing per theme but they work well. just a few ideas that may help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3591912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 my RW lists haven't had particular trouble with fliers given the fact they can outmaneuver pretty easily. Exploiting hit and run is also pretty big. If they choose to enter hover mode, then they themselves run the risk of being melta-d through the cockpit. Granted, my units aren't invincible against fliers I DO lose units, but I either (to the best of my ability) give my opponent less than ideal targets to shoot at, or force them to come in at an angle that will make that turn 3 move a little tougher. But if I had to choose from the things above, I'd choose the Morits, I don't mind the ADL, I just don't like spending points on it + said infantry to man it when a mortis is pretty solid. No comment on Nephillim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3591958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 the biggest problem Ravenwing will have from fliers is the helldrake. It can totally bone 2 units per turn. str 6 or 7 hits at AP 3 no cover saves = lots of dead things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3591962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 RW do pay a lot of points for cover save equivalents that can be ignored by many armies which is a definate weakness for us. Of the options mentioned above, I would use the Inq Valkerie (or two), cheapest scoring dudes around and maybe Coteaz and some skulls too ftw. It would mean adjusting your list a little to fit two (or Coteaz) but totally worth it in a competative environment. And they look cool, which is the most important rule of list building .(You can even paint the Valkeries Inq, Black to match ;) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larhendiel Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Have you thought about plasma talons on knights? They will hit at 6+ but they do have a re-roll and are already part of our army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 ^^^ a great point Larhendiel, my RWCS taloned a Storm Raven out of the sky last time they matched up!!! And charged the contents FTW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Spend the points on the Nephilim.... you know you want to... she's a beauty of a model. or you could use a smallish Devastator squad with 3-4 ML with Flakk. Not very Ravenwing, but will get the job done. or add more Black Knights. or get the Storm Wing for flyer over kill Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Mortis contemptor with dual TLLC...accept no substitute! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Gotta agree with march, contemptor mortis is the way to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Yup, while not the pure RW that you want, it is an outstanding option whilst not being 'broken' :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 still have to worry about QQing about forge world though. don't get me wrong I agree and think the model is great but some ppl think that because its forge world its not really in the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I dont know what qqing is but he said that his group uses forgeworld. The tourney uses forgeworld and the unit isnt the revenant titan its a dreadnaught. Play it and let your opponents see its good but not stupid good. If game designers dont seefit to eqiup us with reasonable anti air, weve gotta find some elsewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 QQ means crying (it looks like 2 big eyes with tears in it) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrender_Monkey Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Everyone where I play is pretty much OK with Forge World, we're not big fans of Super Heavies, but the normal scale stuff is considered fair game. Our last couple of tourneys allowed 40k approved Forge World units, our next one is going to allow IA army lists, as something of an experiment. I floated the question at my club and several people suggested the Contemptor, so I've ordered one, I went for the Assault Cannons and a Cyclone (because I like the idea of having 14 shots) but I plan to magnetize so I can change it at a later date. Someone floated the idea of using a Lucius Drop Pod to get it forward and by not disembarking I could use it as ablative hull points. I am a little concerned about crew stunned stopping my shooting, and I'm not entirely sure if I can take advantage of Skyfire/Interceptor while embarked, so I'm going to have a chat with the TO before I buy the Pod. I'm actually not that bothered if the Contemptor/Pod doesn't work out, since they're both fantastic models that I've been meaning to get for a while. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
abraxus Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Don't the rules for Drop Pods state the unit embarked MUST disembark on arrival? Or is the Lucius worded differently? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 With all drop pods the unit auto disembarks. Plus the Skyfire/Interceptor happens at the end of the movement phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrender_Monkey Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 The Lucius specifically allows you to stay embarked, it's an Assault Vehicle so I guess the idea is you stay inside on the turn you arrive (can't assault after deep striking) then charge out the next turn, but it's also an open topped vehicle which would allow the Dread to fire out of it. The functionality of the Lucius is open to a bit of interpretation, which is why I want to discuss it with the TO so I know exactly what I'd be getting with it before buying. I'd consider a regular pod for it but I don't think it's available for a Contemptor Mortis (not listed as a dedicated transport option in IA:Apocalypse). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3592753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 See here for some thoughts: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/?p=3593270 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3593276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Rules for the Lucius Drop Pod do not say anything about being able to stay embarked. Drop pod assault, Inertial Guidance System and Immobile are extremely similar if not verbatim (I don't have my books so I can't say they are identical) to the normal drop pod rules in the BRB and DA codex. The only rule that is different is the assault vehicle rule, which states that the the Dread can assault the turn it disembarks. It then goes on to say that this is different from normal drop pods rules (which state you can't assault). So you can't stay embarked, because there is no rule allowing you to stay embarked in a drop pod. But you can assault, because it says you can, and identifies this as being different than the normal drop pod rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3593636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Is that from Imperial Armour 2: Second Edition? My copy of the lucius drop pod rules in Imperial Armour: Apocalypse has all that and the Burning Retros special rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3593702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retaliation Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Ahem If you would kindly open your copies of Imperial Armor 2: Second edition and Codex: Dark Angels to pages 160 and 42 respectively we may begin! The Lucius pattern drop pod has the Burning Retros (model provides shrouded* for 1 turn), Immobile, Assault Vehicle (redundant because open-topped), DPA(drop pod assault), and IGS(inertial guidance system) rules. The codex pod has the DPA, Immobile, and IGS special rule. It (and the important part) also states under he transport section that the hatches are opened and units must disembark upon landing. The Lucius contains the hatches are opened thing in it's drop pod assault rule. However there is no mention that the dreadnought is forced to disembark. You could interpret the forced open hatches to mean that it must disembark (based on the way the codex drop pod links the two), but it could also easily be settling the issue of modeling the drop pod with doors open or closed. Either way on it's own the Lucius doesn't mention anything about forced disembarkation. *anything touching the model or drawing line of sight through it is provided shrouded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286715-anti-air-for-my-ravenwing/#findComment-3593761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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