Legion structure

[Kol Saresk]

 

Battle-Captain was the honorary rank over the 7th Great Company. The First and Second Great Companies also had honorary ranks, though I can't remember them. I think First Captain and Commander, respectively.

You got it right. Although it is important to point out that, going by a scene in Flight of the Eisenstein, the chain of command went Primarch->First Captain->Commander and Battle-Captain->Captain->etc as Grulgor could pull rank on the captain of the 3rd Company(I think) but could not do the same to Garro.

 

EDIT: Or at least that was the impression I got.

 

EDIT SECUNDUS: You are thinking of the Warbands. True, they are ad hoc but they are typically created for a single campaign and then just disbanded afterwards. And the Warchief can be anyone from a ranking captain to a ranking sergeant to a sergeant who received special dispensation to boss around other captains.

[recon0321]

When the sons of horus would go to war they drew lots to see who would be in the spear tip and who would lead it. So it seems a captain was a captain for most instances except for the first captain

[Adra'Melek]

Found it, Massacre, pg 226. Ancient Lhorgath, 2nd Great Company, 14th Chapter.

 

World Eaters are organised into Echelons (Betrayal) which I think are similar to Chapters.

[Conn Eremon]

I think that was considered a more informal ranking, Kol, like how the Mournival were "technically" not superior officers to the others. Except, I suppose, for Abaddon and Typhon, being First Captains. But in practice, they had the ear of Horus, which while looking far less cool on their pauldrons, did give them some extra weight to throw around.

 

M2 C: You are correct, though I generally don't consider temporary, ad hoc formations when speaking of their general structure.

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe. But it is strange that an informal rank can actually pull rank an actual rank.

[Conn Eremon]

Is it? Consider that each Legion has two individuals of supreme power. The Emperor and the Primarchs. The Legions aren't just military units, but social and cultural ones as well. These Legions fight and die and live together for decades, centuries (technically only two, but whatevs). You can have two Marines with the exact same military rank, but one will have a more personal relationship with their father-general, or has been honored by their god-ruler. Militarily speaking, they are equals. Socially, they are not. And these two officers know that. Those who serve them, or with them, know that. This lends the one officer a form of seniority over the other.

 

It's kind of like how the whole Chaplain authority thing works. They are not officers, but they hold spiritual authority among those who value spirituality, and this can go far by itself.

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, maybe. I mean, I get what you are saying but it just doesn't strike me as what's happening.

[Felix Antipodes]

I just don't understand why, when they decided to pursue the HH storyline, why they didn't sit down and iron out basic stuff like Legion size, structure and variations before a line was written.

[Kol Saresk]

Probably because the original attempt was just going to be a one hit wonder. Make a few and be done with it. But then they realized the demand for it.

[Felix Antipodes]

While there is no doubt a large bit of truth in that, we are talking about a games company where content and background are king. Maybe I just expected more effort because of their previous stuff. (Shrugs)

[Cactus]

In the British army in the 19th Century (and maybe today for all I know) officers of equivalent rank determined their relative seniority by the length of time they had held that rank. So a Captain of two years was more senior than a Captain who had held the same rank for one year and eleven months.

 

I assume that the Legions of the 31st millennium are able to resolve these sort of issues too and the authors just gloss over it.

[Demus Ragnok]

In the British army in the 19th Century (and maybe today for all I know) officers of equivalent rank determined their relative seniority by the length of time they had held that rank. So a Captain of two years was more senior than a Captain who had held the same rank for one year and eleven months.

 

I assume that the Legions of the 31st millennium are able to resolve these sort of issues too and the authors just gloss over it.

This was my thought as well.

[striker8]

Time in rank is often used by many military/para military organizations for determining command authority. But you also have what is known as delegated command authority. That is when an individual is placed as superior to those placed under him regardless of rank by those higher in the command structure. It's how you place an individual who does not hold the command authority based on their rank in the command structure over others that may out rank them. The lowliest of trooper can be given legal authority and command over an senior by having an even higher ranking command delegate their authority to the trooper.  It is usually done for special circumstances where the junior has knowledge or a specialty that makes their being in over all command necessary, or as punishment for the more senior.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

In the British army in the 19th Century (and maybe today for all I know) officers of equivalent rank determined their relative seniority by the length of time they had held that rank. So a Captain of two years was more senior than a Captain who had held the same rank for one year and eleven months.

 

I assume that the Legions of the 31st millennium are able to resolve these sort of issues too and the authors just gloss over it.

Yes, it is still the case except when position trumps seniority, i.e. a unit commander could have authority over more senior officers, especially specialists that surgeons. Moreover, the battalion second in command is always the senior major even when he isn't, if you see what I mean ;)

[Captain Semper]

Legions were not supposed to be organised along strict guidelines. Not even the total strenght of the Legion was defined and in fact it was greatly varying in the eve of Isstvan III. If one looks at the organization section of each Legion, as described in the Legions' sections, will come to the conclusion that just before Isstvan III the structures were completely customised to the size and preferences/needs of each Legion and their Primarch.

 

Out of memory (don't have Betrayal handy right now) the Emperor's Children were divided in 30-odd Millenials (equivalent of a Chapter) each with something like 3-3.5k Marines. The SoH had huge variation within their Companies (again roughly equivalent to a Chapter) from thousands down to a couple of hundreds. So although there was an "offiical" structure at the beginning of the Great Crusade, it was not written in stone nor was it enforced by a "High Command" type of body. Primarchs had total authority on such matters and it was up to them to design the structure, be strict or laxed about it, etc...

 

Now ranks, that's a different story - and certainly way more convoluted. It seems that the BL authors often come up with ranks and honourary ranks and use them interchangeably. So the way I read this is that there is plenty of room for an individual take while not breaking with the shared Universe...

[Beta galactosidase]

Cormac Airt, on 12 Feb 2014 - 15:13, said:

It's kind of like how the whole Chaplain authority thing works. They are not officers, but they hold spiritual authority among those who value spirituality, and this can go far by itself.

That's not necessary. Captains send their sergeants into the field, to far off planets even. Maybe a sergeant is very far afield, securing something or reconnoitering, and who shows up but the captain of some other company, in pursuit of someone else. That sergeant is not under the command of that new captain, probably actually is not allowed to follow his orders if they conflict with the mission from his company captain.

 

So sure, Chaplains are actual officers. They just don't have any actual subordinates. The only problem is all the fighting units are under the command of other, equal officers.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

 

So sure, Chaplains are actual officers. They just don't have any actual subordinates.

Except where a legion might have a chain of command amongst its chaplaincy.