SvenONE Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I only just realized this passed and I didn't really see anyone mention it so I will! It's been quite a year but.... This is intended to mostly be an airing of grievances about my growing discontent with the codex; which is more so directed at GW in general. Most recently there’s been a lot of hubbub on the web about the Las Vegas Open tournament. Well I don’t really care so much about the Eldar overall victory. I care much more about the runner up. The runner up was playing C:SM (White Scars) with a FW allied detachment (Red Hunters, who are a successor of GK). First I really think it’s great a SM army worked it’s way up there amid a sea of Eldar/Necron lists, I like seeing our power armored brethren crushing xenon anywhere, no matter who it is or what colors they bear. What gets me is the fact it wasn’t a Ravenwing list. I wouldn’t say this makes me upset, it just sort of makes me shake my head. When the C:SM codex was released, a lot of DA players said “oh why don’t, or can’t, we have grav guns, we’ve got all the arcane stuff!” The counterpoint to this argument I saw a lot was “why do you want to be like the other legions”. Well if that’s the case, why was C:SM given a really effective means of running a bike list? After all, WS traits are extremely familiar. You can see the list here: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Eric-Hoergers-LVO-2014-Space-Marines-Red-Hunters-Runner-Up.pdf I’ve tried to re-create this list in a RW flavor, you’re able to run the allied detachment, but turning the White Scars portion into RW is costly. My list comes in around 1924, I dropped the Stormtalon for a Darktalon, and the thunder fire for 2 Whirlwinds. That’s roughly 200 points OVER the 1750 max and probably less effective. I’m sure there’s ways to put together a similar list, but it would play considerably different (the red hunters chapter tactics are pretty neat). Which sort of brings me to the larger point that’s been bothering me for the last few months. It’s really frustrating to spend money on a hobby that doesn’t really appear to be “maintained” by the developers. 6th edition has seen 9 releases, it’s really 7 if you discount Adepta Sororitas and Inquisition, codices that look more like GW had notes laying around and decided to finally push something out the door. Of those 7, 5 have received or are receiving supplements (Tyranids rumored to be on the way). The only 2 who didn’t were Chaos Daemons, and Dark Angels. Even if these supplements aren't great (Iyanden and Farsight are, Sentinals also not bad). I personally am not really thrilled with the way GW has handled Dark Angels overall, from the errors and misprints of the codex, PFG FAQ, weird rules (Blade of Caliban’s existence is infuriating), and units overall (LSV, Neph). It’s not like we’ve even heard any concrete rumors regarding a supplement. We’re stuck with this codex as is, with nothing really to look forward to at all. To me, it’s quite honestly a real head scratcher that in a year we haven’t really seen or heard ANYTHING regarding something “different” about our codex to get excited. I exclude cypher since that’s not really for us directly. I still enjoy playing my DA I played roughly 2-4 games a week and easily win as many as I lose and the wins are hard earned and rewarding. When I’m not playing I’m modelling/painting, but the honeymoon is over and I’m really losing interest in playing these stubborn sobs. At least when I lose with Dark Eldar I knew going in that it was a possibility because well..Dark Eldar. I think it’s such a shame that the first legion just isn’t really hacking it on the table (but hey at least we look damn good). This codex came out with some fanfare but quickly got stale if you ask me. Modelling and painting though, we've still got a great looking narrative army. Edit: I want to encourage a positive discussion, and not create an all doom-and-gloom look at the codex 1 year later. So I encourage people to share their thoughts with how the codex has stood up against new releases over time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 You are correct, we are overpriced in many units. My advice would be to 'suck it up buttercup' as GW is crap at balance period. They only had to make us look good until C:SM arrived for the masses, now we will be left to rot until 7th or beyond. Doom and gloom makes for a happy First Legion ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3592709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 GW will say that they meant for it to be that way and we can always add allies but I agree. We did get screwed on a few things. We got 2 great new units (deathwing knights and black knights). Having an all bike list is still my favorite part of dark angels and really the only thing that made me start playing it to begin with. A few other armies can do bike but not like us. C:SM can have bikes but don't have the same neat tricks that we can bring (and they can bring cool stuff we can't as well). Orks (for now) can bring a really nasty bike list that moves fast and hits like a truck full of trucks. Eldar bikes die a little bit easier than all the rest but move like a kid on crack and cool-aid. Still of all that being able to have an attack bike, 3-6 bikes + a speeder as a troop choice makes me like DA best. Only real down side is having to field an overpriced bullet magnet that doesn't really ever pay for himself. Sammael isn't bad bad by no means. But in contrast what can C:SM get for 200 points? A chapter master with bike (base) is 150 before neat toys and Kor'sarro Khan is 150 with his bike. Both allow bikes as troops. I'm getting off topic but still we kinda got shorted because what happens if people are running a league without special characters? yay we get stuff with the boys in green. I still think they screwed lots of armies by the amount of AP 2 that is out there. When 6th came out people flipped their lids becuase power sword were AP 3 and they though OMG how can I kill termies and etc. People mostly avoid termies because of so much AP 2 out right now. I'd be worried to take termies vs eldar because of the volume of shots and having it AP 2 on the roll of a 6 (from every troop choice no less). I really don't see how GW comes up with ideas and things but I really down they are meaning to balance anything at all. I still think that sales drives how they market and write codexs. I know that Eldar hadn't had an update in years and years but to go from being able to field a low end army to one that is seen in almost all lists in the top 8 is a bit much. I could rant all day but we've all heard this stuff before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3592740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CovertToaster Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Yeah it sucks, kor'sarro khan is too cheap and CT:WS is OP when it hands +1S to HoW hits, hit and run, and skilled rider to all WS bikes. We're just lucky that GW hasn't handed out free plasma talons. Screwed for another addition. Still.....their models are ugly! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3592766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If it makes you all feel any better, I would never run White Scars allies over you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3592804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 lol cheers disruptor_fe404 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3592834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If it makes you all feel any better, I would never run White Scars allies over you! And painting white white is such a pain in the ass... There is a reason I only have one Apoth and the Black Knights take forever to paint. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3592851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Haven Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Brother, what is it to be a Dark Angel? It is to be the First Legion, the honored, the Sons of the Lion. And that makes your victories all the sweeter, for winning with style is priceless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3592957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Eh, balance isn't a GW priority, not are tourneys. I've said that numerous times. There are other game systems out there with a much more tourney-centric/balanced game design philosophy. GW clearly doesn't measure the success of a Codex by how it places at tourneys, nor does it balance them based on said standings. I really don't think they are planning any supplements for the Dark Angels either. Yes, White Scars may do things better. They are a First Founding based specifically around the Fast Attack/bike concept. The Ravenwing are a single piece of the Dark Angels, not a First Founding Chapter in their own right. The WS don't have any special Terminator concepts though. I think that you are lamenting the wrong thing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 It's the LSV and Nephilim that rankle the most for me. Both should be sooooo cool and deadly, both are rendered mediocre to pointless by single stats in their statline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Yup, that is the main problem with our Dex, most of the suposed 'good stuff' is underwhelming or overpriced and barely worth the upgrade. We have a couple of fantastic units but more of our new stuff is really very Meh and unfocussed (I'm looking at you LSV/Neph/DT). Our basic bikes and Termies for example, whilst cooler than C:SMs ones are far too dear for their survivablity in 6th and that eats quickly into any efficiency calculations, especially when our cool upgrades like better cover saves can be completely ignored by two cheap markerlight hits and Storm shields can be ignored due to masses of cheap massed S5-6 medium ranged massive firepowerness. All our expensive upgrades are no good if you die the same as the stock standard cheap dude. To be slightly competative and to be able to field a range of builds so many of our units need serious attention to their cost. Unfortunately GeeDub is very loath to change points costs outside of total reprints (not unheard of just unlikely) for this reason I would also have liked to see us get a 'Birthday' through some means FAQ/Errata/PDF would be nice but a whole new printing without so many errors would be better(although I already have too many copies of this dex ) I still love the challenge of the DA and like others ^^^ I won't be trading over to WS or anyone else it is just another day in the Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Make: * Blacksword missiles count as having Armourbane vs Flyers * LSV AV12 all around (and maybe have another HP) * the cover save provided by Dark Shroulds immune to Markerlights and any other devices that remove cover saves Instantly those units become worthwhile taking, a couple of things that are OP from other armies suddenly have a paper to their rock, and the codex becomes more flexible and varied. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 It's the LSV and Nephilim that rankle the most for me. Both should be sooooo cool and deadly, both are rendered mediocre to pointless by single stats in their statline. I wonder why that is.. you would think that a new model would have better rules to attract more buyers. I have yet to even ponder buying either of them and I own every DA model since 3rd ed (minus the "I gotta pee" Belial model). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Doesn't help that the LSV isn't remotely loved aesthetically. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Eh, balance isn't a GW priority, not are tourneys. I've said that numerous times. There are other game systems out there with a much more tourney-centric/balanced game design philosophy. GW clearly doesn't measure the success of a Codex by how it places at tourneys, nor does it balance them based on said standings. I really don't think they are planning any supplements for the Dark Angels either. Yes, White Scars may do things better. They are a First Founding based specifically around the Fast Attack/bike concept. The Ravenwing are a single piece of the Dark Angels, not a First Founding Chapter in their own right. The WS don't have any special Terminator concepts though. I think that you are lamenting the wrong thing... The WS example was really just that, one example of numerous things, like the fact Shroud of Heroes costs the same as Shield Eternal. The LVO win was more or so just a talking point to segue into the problem I think GW has, especially with our codex at large. Games Workshop doesn't really seem to do game very well. What's kinda crazy to me is that people are totally willing to accept an off-kilter game system. If you're going to be invested in this hobby, I'd think you'd like all aspects of it to be pretty accessible and fun. There's no way that 40K is as successful as it is without the game system to perpetuate it. Models may sell armies, but rules keep them alive and turn stock over and over again. Not to mention that the next time the codex comes around people may be hesitant to buy it, I know I'll be in that camp, and I don't like the idea that I am. GW's adamant approach to rules I think is a problem in this day and age when there's a lot of other enjoyable things out there competing for my money. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Doesn't help that the LSV isn't remotely loved aesthetically. I don't mind it. It's not the best thing, but far from the worst, aesthetically. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Doesn't help that the LSV isn't remotely loved aesthetically. I don't mind it. It's not the best thing, but far from the worst, aesthetically. Spud... Centurions... My LSV/DS just about painted itself and is a much better model than the pics on GW's site make it look. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I'm still happy with DA Codex. Despite not holding uo there competitive wise, it will dtill give many units to keep frendly games interesting. It will till hold on it's own much better than previous Codex. In fact I loathedthe previous codex so much, that I almost don't care about some of the actual codex shortcomings. We have better bikes, standards are back, wargear and other stuff.. we have flyers and bew types pf speeders... For friendly games, it's really enough. I don't game as much as before so now I'm more focused in enjoying the game and fielding units that appeal to me, even if I lose said game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggabertha Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I suppose the perk of being Dark Angels or any of their successors is mainly in the flexibility of the two unique companies. No other Codex gets to have a mix of Terminators the way we do and no other army gets to have bikes and speeders the way we do (Plasma Talons mostly). The real thing is what does the Greenwing have to offer that the other Codexes don't? And I suppose that's pretty much the banners, the librarian psychic power and the Interrogator Chaplain along with a handful of other shiny artifacts such as the Power Field Generator. The grass is always greener on the other side (hurr hurr) but I think we could've had it a LOT worse. We could've come out like Chaos Space Marines for instance... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I'm still happy with DA Codex. Despite not holding uo there competitive wise, it will dtill give many units to keep frendly games interesting. It will till hold on it's own much better than previous Codex. In fact I loathedthe previous codex so much, that I almost don't care about some of the actual codex shortcomings. We have better bikes, standards are back, wargear and other stuff.. we have flyers and bew types pf speeders... For friendly games, it's really enough. I don't game as much as before so now I'm more focused in enjoying the game and fielding units that appeal to me, even if I lose said game. This is where the main problem of having a decent codex lies...We had such a terribile codex in 2006 that now we are prone to accept a subpar codex cause is better than the old one... Our codex is not terribile but its not the best even in friendly games... I dont want an autowin codex like tau or eldar but GW can do better For us... The Real problem is that GW is not willing to fix what they broke... The fast pace they are releasing codices Leaves no room For updating older releases... In addiction this is not 3rd Edition when GW released codex DA 3.5 to fix the problema codex DA 3.0 had... Thia is 6th Edition when GW releases Cypher dataslate and pretends us to be happy cause the BG is DA related even if Cypher is not a boost For our codex... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 But we don't have a sup-par Codex. It's no top tier but it's not subpar. WE have some valid choices, albeit different from C:SM cousins and those same choices funnel us into a mono-build to be more competitive. What we have is some sup-par units, but we do have some shinning stars that enable us to have some good results. Only if one diverges from those few units, then it becomes under-strenght. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I'm still happy with DA Codex. Despite not holding uo there competitive wise, it will dtill give many units to keep frendly games interesting. It will till hold on it's own much better than previous Codex. In fact I loathedthe previous codex so much, that I almost don't care about some of the actual codex shortcomings. We have better bikes, standards are back, wargear and other stuff.. we have flyers and bew types pf speeders... For friendly games, it's really enough. I don't game as much as before so now I'm more focused in enjoying the game and fielding units that appeal to me, even if I lose said game. This is where the main problem of having a decent codex lies...We had such a terribile codex in 2006 that now we are prone to accept a subpar codex cause is better than the old one... Our codex is not terribile but its not the best even in friendly games... I dont want an autowin codex like tau or eldar but GW can do better For us... The Real problem is that GW is not willing to fix what they broke... The fast pace they are releasing codices Leaves no room For updating older releases... In addiction this is not 3rd Edition when GW released codex DA 3.5 to fix the problema codex DA 3.0 had... Thia is 6th Edition when GW releases Cypher dataslate and pretends us to be happy cause the BG is DA related even if Cypher is not a boost For our codex... Actually I see the thing differently... Let's see it the other side. Imagine a v6 without Tau and Eldar but with the other codexes.... Would you struggle THAT much with your codex DA? I don't think so. Tyranids are playable, Deamons are sometimes difficult if it's tzeentch-oriented but other than that it's fine, the CSM have the heldrake but have nothing left (and the drake can be toned down just by giving him a 180° arc of fire)... As for the rest, it's v5 codex waiting for their revamp. Personnaly, I don't think the IG will be THAT powerful... The main problem is not that we have a crappy codex. Sure we have the LSV and the Dark Talon REALLY meh but but which codex hasn't subpar choices? The problem is that GW broke the balance with Tau and Eldar dex. Without those codex ours would be perfectly playable.The best proof is that we are not the only v6 codex struggling ... So it cannot come from our codex. So I agree with you on one point : I don't want DA to be Tau or Eldar codex.... But the difference between what you think andd what I think is that, to me, DA codex doesn't need a revamp. Our codex is totally in phase with the new Tyranid codex for exemple. To me, GW should update Tau and eldar to tone them down. Eh, balance isn't a GW priority, not are tourneys. I've said that numerous times. There are other game systems out there with a much more tourney-centric/balanced game design philosophy. GW clearly doesn't measure the success of a Codex by how it places at tourneys, nor does it balance them based on said standings. I really don't think they are planning any supplements for the Dark Angels either. It's like every extremism... You cant' justify any extremism by using another extremism. It's not because some tourney players abuse from the rules and that some will always try to turn them at their advantages that GW is allowed to put the balance to the trash for the sake or fun... Because it's not fun. We all know that GW is currently crossing financial difficulties and that their sales are going down... everybody is saying "the models are too expensive"... But I think that's not where the problem lies. People are also giving up GW because they don't get any fun. Why investing in a game that is disbalanced? Would you invest in a Football video game if you knew that a bug in the program would make the GK of a team totally unbeatable? No Why bothering buying orks, IG, CSM or BA models if everybody is telling you :"once you face a Tau/Eldar army, you're doomed" We should have the humility to not bring everything to us and our codex. We should open our minds and see that the difficulties we have with our codex, chaos players, Nids players, SM players DE players do have too (note that I dont talk about IG, BA and orks because their codex is rather old and should be released in a close future... But they do have problems too!) GW conception teams should have the humility to recognize that they should be more numerous, beta test more and more serious when it comes to rules creation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Remember you can make use of Allies if there are specific shortcomings in the DA Codex ;). Perhaps take a few Tau :D. The current book - although not an auto-win tool by any means - provides a great opportunity nonetheless for players to build a variety of fairly competitive armies, rather than just the few we had in our last book. I would say that tournies, nor the predictable WAAC builds therein, do not interest me in the slightest. If it was an issue then I'd probably be playing Tau and/or Eldar right now, and have a Necron flyerwing, Grey Knights, a Space Wolves, an Ork and a Chaos army sat on my shelves as evidence of previous successful tournament builds - while nervously eyeing each new Codex release for the next 'must have' 40K trump faction. But I don't. (Well, apart from a few GK maybe.) If that scenario is your thing then see that as a challenge to overcome - or play a different army. A bit harsh maybe - but over the preceeding DA Codex edition I've seen many topics like this and although I recognise the right to free discussion, I'm frankly sick of them when they become unconstructive whine-fests Best option, organise proper discussion on unit improvements where you see them reqd - and send the recommendations to GW to see what happens. If anything does happen I'll be amazed :). Cheers A Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Lack of fun, now there's a chestnut Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Don't get me wrong, I do have fun... Because I now can make lots of different lists (which was totally impossible with the old codex and those 70pts blocks of 5 marines) and because I have great models to build... Moreover I'm playing in a club with good players and no WAAC... so everything is fine for me. But I understand why some people are getting tired... I even see former Tau player, selling their army because game has becoming to easy... <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286764-we-missed-our-birthday-warning-bit-of-a-rant-ahead/#findComment-3593190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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