Biggabertha Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Yeah... when things get to be too easy, you know it's time to look at how things are going. Balancing things is so difficult - if our Nephilim Jetfighter received a buff or another one of our units became better than it is now, wouldn't other armies start to rattle the cages as well? Our Hammernators with a Cyclone Missile Launcher on their backs are insanely good but no one else really gets to field them like we do - some armies would kill for that kind of flexibility and survival! Then there's things like our Ravenwing Grenade Launcher or the Power Field Generator... bad enough Land Raiders are hard to crack under normal circumstances but with a cheap Techmarine or Librarian following along..? One to repair Hull Points if needed while the other buffs accuracy... it's just insane what we CAN do. I'm fairly sure that there's plenty of room to increase the efficiency of our Codex - but if we were too good, wouldn't we be the ones people would be saying things like: "Ugh, Dark Angels..? "Nah, I'm not playing - you'll just Salvo 4 me/4+ invulnerable save/Deathwing Assault me by Turn 2 and I'll be dead." I'd hate to be a Tau or Eldar player right now and see my opponents' face visibly sag that they're facing an army that has such a strong presence on the table. (well, unless I'm feeling evil anyway....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 "The tired man they say no longer cares" This game does NOT need apathy, as Master A says: some people are tired of predictable one way matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larhendiel Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Where I come from? From land of Bretonnia. I have loathed 40k snce my first encounter with Warhammer, I always thought that those guys in suppoed power armour with fancy backpack and glass swords look silly, oversized shoulder pads suggested to me that some nerd responsible for their design had some muscle complex and got bullied too often in the school Then I saw Dark Vengeance box with this beautiful librarian and company master and chaplain. And I thought "WOW they look good!" then I heard rumour that in just a few months they gonna have new army book! And then I thought about my 12 years old Bretonnian book, where there are hardly any Black Library books about it (DA have plenty and more coming). I thought about half of the miniature range gone from GW website (nowadays you can't buy legel Bretonnian army, we're effectively no longer supported, kinda dead) I have over 4k painted brets, I use only half of it, last time I changed my army list was 2009. I actually printed it and covered it in foil. With my DA each battle is unique, each army list is different and very playable. I still have not used a single forgeworld thingy. What does upset me is rule of cool that we didn't get; big stuff gets big rules for little points. But I found remedy even for that: Zone Mortalis. My nowadays fauvorite way to play 40k. No expansions no biggies. Just tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Hey, at least our units are not as overpriced as they once were. This codex is closer to correct than any before (even if it isn't still quite there), except for Codex: Angels of Death. The most glaring thing is that when C: SM came out with lower point Scouts, C: DA should immediately have been errata'd. And yet that still isn't fixed. Anything else is just minor tweaks of debatable levels, but that one is just outright messed up. That GW ignores such blatant inconsistencies is what irritates people most in my opinion. As to the OP, one can't blame the writers of GW codexes for what is done with them in combination with FW codexes/models that are created after the fact, as as both are intended to really be played on their own. That the Allies rules exist at all is really just for fun, and as a means to suck somebody into collecting another full army once they have purchased a potion of it to use as Allies. Well it is a stock-holding company, and will a company allow some negatives to creep into things if the net effect is that they sell more models? Well, duh, of course they will, and one cannot really blame them much for doing so especially considering how many of the people complaining about things on the intarwebz are NOT tournament players themselves. I don't know about anybody else, but the result of whatever tournament have never influence my enjoyment of the game outside the tournament scene. The results of tournaments are more an indictment of the tournament structure, and how to successfully play within it, not of the entirety of the game itself, nor of even just the army lists. Some players are simply smarter and play better than others as well. It doesn't help that many people who gripe about tournament stuff are not even tournament players themselves. Tournament players get lots of exposure, but tournament players make up only a tiny percent of the people who purchase GW products. So, does GW really care all that much about who wins what tournament? Do they have anything really at stake in it? Nope. Not really, other than that they just might see a slight upsurge in model sales that just so happened to be in the top-ranked armies. But I almost missed the main point of the OP. The "Runner Up" list contains the following: Kor'sarro Khan Chapter Master Uber Blunt Object 28 Space Marine Bikes 1 Space Marine Attack Bike 5 Scouts 2 Stormtalons 2 Thunderfire Cannons There are 12 grav guns, 4 combi-gravs, 1 combi-melta, and 1 multimelta in that list, plus the vheicls/artillery piece weaponry. All other weapons are one of the basic options for the various units, other than the UBER Chapter Master who is set up with a power fist and the usual overly protective bits for close combat (nobody else is though, so he is going to either be on his own, or partially ruining the effectiveness of any unit he joins that he leads into close combat). No models other than the HQs have more than 1 base Attack, and of those models none of them have any special close combat weapons (other than the Techmarine gunners that is), so this really is a "Stay the heck away and shoot them!" type of army. This list has a maximum of 6 Scoring units (I think), if the one full-sized Bike Squad Combat Squads. Compare that to this almost fully Ravenwing army list containing *NO* Aliies: HQ Sammael w/Corvex - (5) RW Command Squad: 1 w/RW grenade launcher Librarian: Lvl 1, bike, force axe, Divination(Prescience) - (5) RW Command Squad: 1 x RW grenade launcher TROOPS (6) RW Attack Squadron: 2 x plasma gun, sgt. w/ power weapon (6) RW Attack Squadron: 2 x meltagun, sgt. w/ power weapon (6) RW Attack Squadron: 2 x flamer, sgt. w/ meltabombs (5) Scouts: 5 x sniper rifles FAST ATTACK Nephilim: TLC version Nephilim: TLC version HEAVY SUPPORT Whirlwind --------------------- That comes in at 1,748 pts. That list has: Sammael (who will likely kill Kor'sarro Khan, and at +50 pts. he ought to, or tar-pit the UBER Chapter Master for a while if needed) Librarian on bike (a.k.a. "The Force Multiplier") 18 RW Bikes 10 RW Command Bikes ( a.k.a. Black Knights) 2 Nephilim (They can do some bad stuff to quite a few things if the enemy is not prepared for them, and considering peoples' low opinion of them, who will be?) 1 Whirlwind This army contains two less models than the other: 1 less attack bike; 1 less "artillery-type" unit (well, four really, but kill a Thunderfire and the Techmarine gunner is rendered relatively ineffective, or kill the gunner and the Thunderfire Cannon is automatically removed anyways). This army contains Sammael's 1 plasma cannon, plus 8 plasma talons, 2 RW grenade launchers, 2 plasma guns, 2 meltaguns, 2 flamers, 2 power weapons, 1 meltabombs, and 10 corvus hammers on the non-HQ units, plus the vehicle weaponry. Unlike the other army, this army contains 10 non-HQ models with 2 base Attacks, and all of them are armed with the corvus hammers (which are made even more effective by the RW Grenade Launchers). This army can have up to 7 Scoring units, if the RW Attack Squadrons Combat Squad. Both armies have 2 air units, both of them being decent ground attack craft (both have Strafing Run, though the Nephilim can better take on heavy targets due to its TLC), and both operate as decent air-to-air units (the Nephilim arguably has a slight edge here with an extra hull point and its TLC). Don't necessarily assume that these lists will be fighting just each other, but if they did it would surely be a bloody affair resulting in the 'winner" limping off the field of battle (if both players were of equitable skill and the dice didn't unduly influence things). That Ravenwing list is arguably equal to the "Runner Up" list so far as firepower is concerned, but the Ravenwing list outclasses the "Runenr-Up" list so far as Close Combat is concerned. Consider that Ravenwing list, and ask yourself if you really think it would be less capable of handling a variety of tournament opponents as well as, or better than, the Runner-Up" list. As a final thought, I would be really tempted to drop the whirlwind, plus a power weapon, in order to squeeze in a RW Darkshroud in order to lessen the effectiveness of any enemy's low AP weaponry against units within 6" of the RW Darkshroud. One more box of Black Knights, and I could actually field this army. Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 @Luci -- I don't think we have a subpar codex overall, I just think our codex is sub-par in comparison to 6th edition codices (I don't think CSM are AS bad as everyone says they are, even if they are filthy traitors, they probably have the most robust heavy support in the game) @Isiah -- I understand your view of the posts being unconstructive whine-fests. I'll admit I didn't offer a constructive point to close out my OP. I really just lamented the fact that this codex for me hasn't been as fun as it used to even in friendly games. Bear in mind also there's a dollar value behind a lot of this. I added up all of my DA and I have approximately $1800 worth of DA, $1300 of which is exclusive to DA (HQs, DW, RW, Fliers/LSV/Darkshroud). I don't think that the whining is completely unfounded. I'm turning 30 this year, married and own a house with no children (for now) with disposable income. I'm probably GW's ideal candidate for a customer. Now hobbying is intangible, but if I was interested in hobbying I would spend a fraction of what I did (1 command squad box would likely do rather than the 6 I bought), I also like the game aspect -- in fact 30 terminators + 50 bikes in apocalypse IS fun. More to that, the fact you're sick of these posts like mine is pretty telling of the state of the codex. That means in less than a year so many people have brought up the shortcomings or puzzling aspects of the codex to a point of nausea! @shabbadoo, I see what you're doing with the list, I don't think that list is bad at all, but I think you are giving a lot of credit to the Nephilim over the the Stormtalons, undervaluing the loss of that extra artillery piece (thunderfires don't require LOS, so while they're easy to kill, they can be hard to target), how good grav weaponry is on bikes (each squad is putting out 6 shots always), and WS +1 HOW. Also for what it's worth, the Red Hunters have some pretty neat chapter traits. But really the list argument is kind of a moot point, I really brought it up as an example of how we always see the "well we don't want all the codices to be the same" yet here's a codex that is biting our style and biting it well with a path of lesser resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 HQ Sammael w/Corvex - (5) RW Command Squad: 1 w/RW grenade launcher Librarian: Lvl 1, bike, force axe, Divination(Prescience) - (5) RW Command Squad: 1 x RW grenade launcher TROOPS (6) RW Attack Squadron: 2 x plasma gun, sgt. w/ power weapon (6) RW Attack Squadron: 2 x meltagun, sgt. w/ power weapon (6) RW Attack Squadron: 2 x flamer, sgt. w/ meltabombs (5) Scouts: 5 x sniper rifles FAST ATTACK Nephilim: TLC version Nephilim: TLC version HEAVY SUPPORT Whirlwind --------------------- That comes in at 1,748 pts. That list has: Sammael (who will likely kill Kor'sarro Khan, and at +50 pts. he ought to, or tar-pit the UBER Chapter Master for a while if needed) Librarian on bike (a.k.a. "The Force Multiplier") 18 RW Bikes 10 RW Command Bikes ( a.k.a. Black Knights) 2 Nephilim (They can do some bad stuff to quite a few things if the enemy is not prepared for them, and considering peoples' low opinion of them, who will be?) 1 Whirlwind But that is an atypical list for Ravenwing.. There are no speeders for support, no attack bikes. Attack bikes are scoring and you could bring three boosting your scoring units to 10 It doesn't play to our strengths at all outside of Sammael and the libby. At a minimum that list with that many TL bolters (I think the command squads should have been built as RAS too) cries out for the BoD. I really brought it up as an example of how we always see the "well we don't want all the codices to be the same" yet here's a codex that is biting our style and biting it well with a path of lesser resistance. And you admit that you are comparing apples to oranges because "Codexes are not the same". Yes we could emulate the shooty style of that list but why would we want to? Our shooty style can push out twice the bolter shots, (and as I run termies too, "it is the basic saves that you fail") those bolters will do the job if used right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 @Isiah -- I understand your view of the posts being unconstructive whine-fests. I'll admit I didn't offer a constructive point to close out my OP. I really just lamented the fact that this codex for me hasn't been as fun as it used to even in friendly games. I don't think I picked out your post in particular. Bear in mind also there's a dollar value behind a lot of this. I added up all of my DA and I have approximately $1800 worth of DA, $1300 of which is exclusive to DA (HQs, DW, RW, Fliers/LSV/Darkshroud). I don't think that the whining is completely unfounded. I'm turning 30 this year, married and own a house with no children (for now) with disposable income. I'm probably GW's ideal candidate for a customer. Now hobbying is intangible, but if I was interested in hobbying I would spend a fraction of what I did (1 command squad box would likely do rather than the 6 I bought), I also like the game aspect -- in fact 30 terminators + 50 bikes in apocalypse IS fun. Heard all that before. This is a hobby and no one is forced to spend lots of money on it. It's the choice the individual hobbyist must make and they must live by their decision. It is not GW's problem to make sure your model-investment is future-proofed. More to that, the fact you're sick of these posts like mine is pretty telling of the state of the codex. That means in less than a year so many people have brought up the shortcomings or puzzling aspects of the codex to a point of nausea! Well I was referring back to the 4th Edition there. But I have no problems with constructive development ideas - and will happily join in myself. Hell the Mod team here spent long enough hours trying to keep the 4th Edition Unforgiven Codex Development topic on the straight and narrow. But on the other hand has joyfully closed down many of the our-codex-sucks-I'm-never-playing-40K-again type topics too. No Codex is ever perfect. So go make a better one. What more can I say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 And you admit that you are comparing apples to oranges because "Codexes are not the same". Yes we could emulate the shooty style of that list but why would we want to? Our shooty style can push out twice the bolter shots, (and as I run termies too, "it is the basic saves that you fail") those bolters will do the job if used right... Not sure I understand your point, my comparison was meant to highlight the fact that it seems the "not all codexes should be the same" approach is not true as we have an efficient bike list doing well in an environment of abuseable lists. I called it a moot point because it's exactly that, we can debate it forever because the lists are so similar, I see people keep suggesting the RW alternatives, but they really aren't an apples-to-oranges comparison, it actually IS apples to apples. Which undermines one of the strongest aspects of our codex because now you have an aspect of a codex that runs really similar to ours. Again, it was just an example of the issue at large which is really that I think the codex has gotten stale not by major rule changes in this, but simply GW's own codex writers. It's not just that LVO runner up list, it's all of our rules in combination with all of the rules that are being written around the game. Look, I don't want to pee in anyone's ice cream. I'm glad people have fun with the codex, but the proof is in the pudding. Even here on B&C the DA forum is the least frequented of our other power armored bretheren, and I think for good reason. There's nothing unlikeable about our fluff. We don't have some indestructible daemon librarian, we don't have go-go-gadget monkeys, we also don't all of a sudden happen to have ridiculous space marine inside space marine suits which have supposedly been around for quite a while. Heck on top of all of that, our Primarch isn't even in a coma anymore, he's just ASLEEP! So if our fluff is awesome, and our models are awesome -- why are we such a minority for a 6th edition release? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 @Isiah -- I understand your view of the posts being unconstructive whine-fests. I'll admit I didn't offer a constructive point to close out my OP. I really just lamented the fact that this codex for me hasn't been as fun as it used to even in friendly games. I don't think I picked out your post in particular. >Bear in mind also there's a dollar value behind a lot of this. I added up all of my DA and I have approximately $1800 worth of DA, $1300 of which is exclusive to DA (HQs, DW, RW, Fliers/LSV/Darkshroud). I don't think that the whining is completely unfounded. I'm turning 30 this year, married and own a house with no children (for now) with disposable income. I'm probably GW's ideal candidate for a customer. Now hobbying is intangible, but if I was interested in hobbying I would spend a fraction of what I did (1 command squad box would likely do rather than the 6 I bought), I also like the game aspect -- in fact 30 terminators + 50 bikes in apocalypse IS fun. Heard all that before. This is a hobby and no one is forced to spend lots of money on it. It's the choice the individual hobbyist must make and they must live by their decision. It is not GW's problem to make sure your model-investment is future-proofed. More to that, the fact you're sick of these posts like mine is pretty telling of the state of the codex. That means in less than a year so many people have brought up the shortcomings or puzzling aspects of the codex to a point of nausea! I have no problems with constructive development ideas - hell the Mod team here spent long enough trying to keep the 4th Edition Unforgiven Codex Development topic on the straight and narrow. But on the other hand has closed down many of the our-codex-sucks-I'm-never-playing-40K-again type topics too. No Codex is ever perfect. So go make a better one. What more can I say? You can't say much else! You aren't wrong at all! Though it is in GW's best interest to engender faith in them as a company that can make models, write rules, and make a good game to keep you as a customer. If anything I would compare them to a restaurant with great food but terrible service. They won't really go out of business, but they'll always have that mark on their public image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I completely understand complaints about a sub-par codex, kind of reminds me of the 4th edition Tau codex, you know, the one that very few Tau players could win with? Every army has cheese/spam lists and those are the ones that Tournaments are going to be won with. If a Tau player can't find a way to make winning hard, he clearly doesn't understand how to not use Crisis Suits and Riptides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CovertToaster Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Eh, balance isn't a GW priority, not are tourneys. I've said that numerous times. There are other game systems out there with a much more tourney-centric/balanced game design philosophy. GW clearly doesn't measure the success of a Codex by how it places at tourneys, nor does it balance them based on said standings. I really don't think they are planning any supplements for the Dark Angels either. Yes, White Scars may do things better. They are a First Founding based specifically around the Fast Attack/bike concept. The Ravenwing are a single piece of the Dark Angels, not a First Founding Chapter in their own right. The WS don't have any special Terminator concepts though. I think that you are lamenting the wrong thing... The WS example was really just that, one example of numerous things, like the fact Shroud of Heroes costs the same as Shield Eternal. The LVO win was more or so just a talking point to segue into the problem I think GW has, especially with our codex at large. Games Workshop doesn't really seem to do game very well. What's kinda crazy to me is that people are totally willing to accept an off-kilter game system. If you're going to be invested in this hobby, I'd think you'd like all aspects of it to be pretty accessible and fun. There's no way that 40K is as successful as it is without the game system to perpetuate it. Models may sell armies, but rules keep them alive and turn stock over and over again. Not to mention that the next time the codex comes around people may be hesitant to buy it, I know I'll be in that camp, and I don't like the idea that I am. GW's adamant approach to rules I think is a problem in this day and age when there's a lot of other enjoyable things out there competing for my money. I know I shouldn't be throwing the discussion back to this but white scars highlights the shortcomings of having a vanilla dex. You see one codex for all marine armies works when chapter tactics gives a small boost to create the semblance of individuality between different chapter's. However white scars tactics are so divergent from vanilla armies that they cash in on GW having to assign bike squads a points value that doesn't overcost them for the majority of factions in the book but then give WS a larger number of free special rules to create the feel of what is actually a very unique chapter. Now if GW released a C:WS you will probably find that WS bikes are then priced at more than 21 points apiece but forcing UM's or IF's to fork out closer to 30 points per bike would just create a bigger collection of whinge threads and greater negative feeling towards the company. Basically C:UM needs to be just that with UM and other factions that adhere more strictly to the codex astartes but WS, and even IH, are becoming more removed from that base chapter and it is more difficult to reflect the individuality of that chapter while maintaining a balanced points system. On the other hand Red Hunter's make an excellent codex chapter as mnemonic redaction protocols is a handy CT but it's a one turn only ability and handing out a rule like interceptor is next to useless anyway. After all it's virtually impossible to accurately predict when your opponents reserves will come in and one turn of any special rule will never particularly break a game unless it's called USR "win target game". I feel much better about C:DA one year on but like bryan says RW are a company not a first founding chapter so having the second company as an all encompassing force changes the codex from C:DA to C:RW. To balance that RW and DW need some slight disadvantage that forces tactics to evolve to cope or to bring other elements of the chapter in to compensate to maintain the feel of the dark angels as a chapter in their own right and not a strange WS mimic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Be they a company or a chapter they shouldn't cost 27 points each, that is just plain overcosted regardless of their large number of special rules. They die just like the 21 point ones and that is the real point, there are often too few of them or the extras that make the list tough are diminished so we get beat by the bigger and better supported hammer. It is true that Tau and Eldar coming down a peg or two would help as much as making us better, maybe that is the birthday we need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Even here on B&C the DA forum is the least frequented of our other power armored bretheren, and I think for good reason. Actually this is not quite true. Dont forget angels of death forum is about a lot of chapters and had black templars merged in. Grey knight and space wolves forumshave post from 2007, while the oldest one on DA is from 2010. The only forum that has more visitors and discussion withposts the same age is the Blood Angel forum. DAis one of the biggest and most active on this site. And I think it's a testimony to this codex that we don't have 1/20th as many rant threads about it as with the past Codices . I've been here in V3, v3.5, v4 and with this one it has been a cakewalk, so to say. Now, I'm not trying to be selectively blind, this codex does have it's issues, and lacks the bite of an Eldar and Tau, but they are the ones in the wrong, not us. Eldar and Tau are armies made for players, DA is an army made more for collectors and "fluff" gamers, it always be so. With Eldar and Tau they can go broke and come up with ridiculous combos and gear ... They are aliens.. misterious old alien tech is always better than human tech in every single sci-fi setting (orks being the notable exception). Now even despite the crazy STC«s discoveries, human tech is always thestepchild.. specially in the dark millenium... Marines will always be jack of all trades and master of none.. Aliens can always come up with something good and make it ridiculously good. I think that for the purpose that has been designed, our codex is holding up good. GW is a model company, they want to sell models. DA models sell good even without a great set of rules. There's more I could write, but I'll spare yoy guys of teh wall of text. TL;DR: I understand where this rant is coming from but grass is always greener on the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 It’s not like we’ve even heard any concrete rumors regarding a supplement. Why would the Dark Angels Codex need a supplement? The Dark Angels and their successors have all of their units covered in one codex and there is very little deviation from the Codex among the successors. However, Tau, Eldar and Space Marines cover whole species/multitudes of Chapters in one codex and so them getting supplements is logical since they reflect specific groups within a much larger group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 But that is an atypical list for Ravenwing.. There are no speeders for support, no attack bikes. Attack bikes are scoring and you could bring three boosting your scoring units to 10 It doesn't play to our strengths at all outside of Sammael and the libby. At a minimum that list with that many TL bolters (I think the command squads should have been built as RAS too) cries out for the BoD. I really brought it up as an example of how we always see the "well we don't want all the codices to be the same" yet here's a codex that is biting our style and biting it well with a path of lesser resistance. And you admit that you are comparing apples to oranges because "Codexes are not the same". Yes we could emulate the shooty style of that list but why would we want to? Our shooty style can push out twice the bolter shots, (and as I run termies too, "it is the basic saves that you fail") those bolters will do the job if used right... I was going for a comparable list, as the OP was mentioning how RW can't do something close to equivalent that is as strong as that list, which they obviously can (even if it functions a bit different). As you say, RW can get a lot more Scoring units in a slightly different build, which of course would be rather desirable in an objective heavy atmosphere. Also, it is very easy to compare a Stormtalons with AC and skyhammer ML(4 twin-linked Str 6 AP 4 rending shots, 3 skyhammer ML Str 7 AP 4 shots) to a lascannon Nephilim (3 twin-linked Str 5 AP 4 shots, 1 twin-linked Str 9 AP 2 shot, and 2 hellfire missile Str 6 AP 4 shots). We pay 50 points more for our Nephilim, but we get an extra hull point and more reliability when hunting something with heavy armor or a high AV. Is it worth 50 points though? Not quite, but it is not too far off either. the funny thing is, everyone almost universally decries the Nephilim, and so quite few people might not field them. The simple act of fielding two, if not three of them, will often have opponents not expecting to deal with them..and then finding that they will somehow have to. Same with the LS Vengeance. Opponents might be somewhat miffed to have 3 LS Vengeance Deepstrike in and drop plasma pie plates on them from the flank/rear. Even our "crappy" units can do stuff, even if it is a bit harder to pull off. Anybody else have the capability to Deepstrike in a force that that launch Str 7 AP 2 *large blasts*? Nope. That's one of our unique one-trick ponies, but the DA have more than that still. DA have more weird stuff, like the whole "This unit can launch Str 10 AP 2 (sometimes 1) attacks *at initiative order* for one turn, once per game" (that one really is pretty "out there"), and other things. Oh, and I forgot to mention that all of those corvus hammer attacks in that list are made at Str +1. Oops! Kind of important, that! Also, the bike units in that Runner-Up list do not fire 6 grav-shots always: the third grav-gun in each unit is a combi-grav, which can only be fired once as a grav-gun. After that, the sgts. will be firing only their bike guns. There are no combi-weapons in my list. Anyways, I think the list I wrote is pretty competitive when compared to that Runner-Up list, insofar as what the Runner-Up list is capable of dealing with, and would achieve comparable results. That you believe that the list could be made even better by playing more to RW strengths merely serves to reinforce the idea that RW really are not any worse off than bike armies made using C: SM, considering that some public opinion is that this Runner-Up list is super awesome. I think it is a decent list, but not as good as it could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Shabbadoo... You can surprise you opponent fielding 3 NJF or 3 LSV but you Will surprise yourself the same considering hpw much points you are throwing into two mediocre units... The song remains the same... The models costa Too much, the points are Too much and the performance is subpar... About being not subpar... Yes the eldar and tau are OP but if we Remove them and we consider only 6th Edition codices are DA in lì e with them? I dont think so... I think that CD, SM and probably CSM Too are better than us... Maybe only the nids are worst than DA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 About being not subpar... Yes the eldar and tau are OP but if we Remove them and we consider only 6th Edition codices are DA in lì e with them? I dont think so... I think that CD, SM and probably CSM Too are better than us... Maybe only the nids are worst than DA... You "don't think so"... Well that's a matter of opinion and subjectivity. What do have the chaos that DA should fear? Helldrakes... And still, they are a big threat for our RW but against a termi-heavy army, they're out. I remember before the release of the Tau codex, you saw many pure dakka pole pure RW army doing nice results in tournies. Even against Chaos and GK... Even Tau could be playable with this army list just by replacing the rule of 2 markers = ignore cover by 1 marker = -1 cover. SM are not that powerful... They can do nice things but not something we can't counter. Fact is I often see competitive lists of SM with allies (the famous shadowsun centurion leader) and sometimes it's DA allies! It shows that by itself, the SM codex is not THAT broken... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 ... I think that CD, SM and probably CSM Too are better than us...You are kidding right? My best bud is a powergamer. (I dont begrudge him that, you kinda have to be in the local meta.) However when he wants to play a challenging army he pulls out his Daemons because any mistake costs him the game and I have heard the ranting from down the board in the Chaos sections... Conventional wisdom says the only builds are 3 helldrakes and/or Plague marines. And Shabadoo hit all my points better than I did. thanks guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 50 points for a flyer that does relatively similar things is pretty huge, especially since a Stormtalon can hover (also has strafing run), I don't see that extra hull point as a big deal since the thing that makes flyers difficult to deal with isn't their HPs, it's the fact they require 6s to hit... At the end of the day though, just about every DA list looks good on paper. I'd really like to see a BR that features 3 LSVs or 3 Nephilims, color me skeptical! As for comments about a supplement. Why does any codex need a supplement, I'd argue that they don't really need them at all. But I think it would be really nice to simply have one, why? because I love Dark Angels and would something new really be that bad? Also, for what it's worth the Ravenwing's roots go all the way back to Caliban, but I don't know if we can confirm that they were one of the 6 wings of the legion during the Great Crusade/Heresy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 ... I think that CD, SM and probably CSM Too are better than us...You are kidding right? My best bud is a powergamer. (I dont begrudge him that, you kinda have to be in the local meta.) However when he wants to play a challenging army he pulls out his Daemons because any mistake costs him the game and I have heard the ranting from down the board in the Chaos sections... Conventional wisdom says the only builds are 3 helldrakes and/or Plague marines. You can abuse of Deamons by making a very similar list of the LVO eldar one using screamers and heralds on disk... A full Kairos/3Heralds/screamers/Sorcerers DP is something to count with... but like a RW heavy list before Tau codex. Like I've said some months ago : every codex has its strong build : CSM have the 3 drakes list, Deamons have the sorcerers DP heavy lists, GK have the full psycannons list etc etc... And we have the RWdakka pole list. you can say that our codex is weak because you brought a Greenwing list with a nephilim against one of those... But it doesn't mean our codex is weak, it just means that both players didn't come with the same intentions... It could be the exact same problem if I come with a Bersekers heavy army list without helldrakes against a dakkapole RW... The problem with the Tau codex and the eldar codex is that their special rules are breaking so much the meta that, even if I decide not to play a 6broadsides/1riptides/full pathfinder army, I still have a powerfull list... The marker system is totally broken... the +1 for counter charge shoot as well since they already have the supporting fire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 ... I think that CD, SM and probably CSM Too are better than us... You are kidding right? My best bud is a powergamer. (I dont begrudge him that, you kinda have to be in the local meta.) However when he wants to play a challenging army he pulls out his Daemons because any mistake costs him the game and I have heard the ranting from down the board in the Chaos sections... Conventional wisdom says the only builds are 3 helldrakes and/or Plague marines.You can abuse of Deamons by making a very similar list of the LVO eldar one using screamers and heralds on disk... A full Kairos/3Heralds/screamers/Sorcerers DP is something to count with... but like a RW heavy list before Tau codex. Like I've said some months ago : every codex has its strong build : CSM have the 3 drakes list, Deamons have the sorcerers DP heavy lists, GK have the full psycannons list etc etc... And we have the RWdakka pole list. you can say that our codex is weak because you brought a Greenwing list with a nephilim against one of those... But it doesn't mean our codex is weak, it just means that both players didn't come with the same intentions... It could be the exact same problem if I come with a Bersekers heavy army list without helldrakes against a dakkapole RW... The problem with the Tau codex and the eldar codex is that their special rules are breaking so much the meta that, even if I decide not to play a 6broadsides/1riptides/full pathfinder army, I still have a powerfull list... The marker system is totally broken... the +1 for counter charge shoot as well since they already have the supporting fire... As a Tau player I would happily go back to the old Markerlights rules if the seeker missiles ones changed back with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Sure, it's possible to cherry pick a list that costs more points if you approximate it under C: DA. That's probably true no matter which two codexes you compare. I squeaked out a narrow victory against a Pedro bolter drill list last night. A similarly designed dakkapole list would have tabled me. As it was, I still had three scoring units alive when the game ended on turn seven. It's a bit hard to complain about C:UM bike lists. The bike troops for a bike HQ is a bit much, but who really does that? They all go straight for the white scars because they're so much better for not a lot more. As already mentioned by others, the white scars are a legitimate all bike chapter, when we have a bike/speeder company only. No leg to stand on there, especially since they toned down the alternative termie lists while making deathwing stronger (in absolute terms. Obviously, they got weaker relative to ravenwing, but that's a testament to the improvement of our black brothers, we also got better...just not as much) and more fun to play. For the first time since 3rd edition, tactical terminators are playable...that's awesome! Codex creep will always make a year-old codex seem underpowered, but we did not get shafted at all, unlike our last codex. Just wait till C:IG drops, and listen to the xenos howl as they're toppled from the top of the heap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 It may take two codexes to make xenos howl... C:Imperial Knights and C:IG... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Eisenhorn Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I'm not one who is super invested in the competitive scene, so this white scars/ravenwing parallel thing doesn't bother me so much, but I think it's rather alarming that all of the space marine army pictures from LVO are bikes bikes bikes. When a single unit is so clearly that much better than everything else in the codex that competitive players basically ignore all other units in the codex (with some exceptions, I'm speaking in generalities) that speaks to a poor internal army balance, even if you can build an abstractly strong force with the book. Then again, competitive play is where spam rules, because the point is to win, not tell a story, so I guess it's largely irrelevant to people like me. I build lists that I think are cool and that are in line with a narrative, but even still, it's unfortunate when it seems like there should have been a bike on the cover of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 This shouldn't be any surprise. If you want a balanced game, don't play 40K, and play something else. Other wise accept the fact GW doesn't care or are incapable of making a balanced game. Once you can do this, life becomes so much easier. If anything start playing Tyranids. You may seem our DA are not so bad. Problem for me, is they are my other army. :P Sorry guys, I guess I am a jinx. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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