Frost Weapons - how can they be remedied?

[Rasclomalum]

I wasn't around during 5th edition, but from what I gather power weapons, regardless of what they looked like, were S:user, I:user and ignored infantry armour. Under that ruleset, a power weapon that conferred a +1 to a model's strength score would have made a worthy addition to the armoury, and looking at old threads and tacticas they seem to have been popular.

With the changes to power weapons in 6th edition, this is not the case anymore. I suppose Frost Swords are still somewhat useable, though from what I've seen even where a model would have gained an additional attack from wielding one paired with a pistol they still tend to be considered lacklustre compared to the Wolf Claw.

 

The Frost Axe is in an even worse position, costing a Power Fist, having all of the Power Fist's drawbacks yet packing less punch. Again, the extra attack from pairing it with a pistol does not seem to adequately compensate for this.

 

Since a new Space Wolves Codex is rumoured, what do you wish they did about these iconic weapons?

[Valerian]

Nope, Frost Weapons weren't worth it in 5e, either. Too expensive for what you got, and 6e has only made it worse.

 

We've had threads on how to fix them on here several times, so you should do a search for those.

 

For some inspiration, I'd recommend you look to the various Chapter-specific weapons in the Dark Angels codex. If Frostfang, for example, functioned as Azrael's sword, I'd be happy with that.

 

V

[Chief Captain Redd]

I loved them in 5th paired with Ragnar, I was running a squad of 4 WG all with frost blades and SS supporting Ragnar (in a crusader) and regularly earned double their points back.

 

Now, personally I still like em both, Swords because I don't play against armies with an abundance of +2 saves, and I like to pair Axes with power mauls for character/hq hunting.

[DanPesci]

Make frost axes strike at -1 initiative, AP2,  rather than initiative 1, AP2. :D

 

chief redd...why would you take a frost axe in this edition? why not take a maul/powerfist combi instead at the same points?

[Rasclomalum]

Fluff and the extra attack would be my guess. 

 

Given that frost swords are more expensive than Wolf Claws anyway, perhaps they could just work like +1S Wolf Claws? 

 

It also nags me that Terminator Wolf Lords can only replace their power weapon with a frost weapon, not the storm bolter. "Free" power weapon + frost weapon would have been a nice, cheapish choice of armament.

[Chief Captain Redd]

Yup, axes are fething cool, and I actually do run quite a few models with the p.fist/p.maul combo. It's just on wolf lords I prefer the look of an axe.

 

Plus if you have a lord with that combo on a Thunder wolf with SotB and a belt they play great against toughness 5/6/7 IC's & MC's first round you get effective 6 autocannon shots and second round 5 plasma gun shots. Very little has survived that when I've run it.

[DanPesci]

Fluff and the extra attack would be my guess. 

 

do you not get an extra attack for having a powerfist/maul combo anyway? As they are both specialist weapons?

 

Totally agree that the axe looks cool though, love my terminators with axes..what id like to see is a reason to take dual axes...as modelled it looks badass, but theres very little point gaming wise :)

[Kasper_Hawser]

LOL, dual axes, what a concept! Almost as cool as dual powerfist ala Robuite Guilliman.

 

Personally speaking I love one handed axes with shields, that is more Viking or Anglo-Saxon depending on your point of view. I also like the two handed ones that the Sanguinary Guard of the Blood Angels use.

 

But back to topic, yeah, instead of axes being initiative 1, just make it minus initiative. But this would mean adjusting the BRB rules regarding mauls, lances, axes and swords, which unlikely they will do so. So maybe I would just make Frost Weapons AP2 and be done with it. That way we have cool swords that can ACTUALLY make mince meat out of termie armour. While this will not fix the Frost Axe initiative issue, it would give the rest of us who also like swords as much as axes to actually have incentive to use swords and bring them out of the wolf armoury. Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf would then have S5 attacks which he can actually strike at Initiative! This would save costs on a powerfist which he would sacrifice intiiative

 

Would an S:User AP2 weapon be worth the cost of our current Frost Weapons? Probably not, but if you think about it, there are almost NO weapons in the Marine Armoury that has AP2 AND strike at initiative. The only ones that come to mind are:

 

1) Deathwing knights in smite mode (1 use only)

2) Burning Blade Relic in Space Marine Armoury.

 

So yeah, just S: User and AP2 for me. It would still be costly but would make our Wolf Guard that much more scarier than the average veteran sergeant. It means against terminator armies, we could theoretically field just power armour wolf guard with frost swords and maybe come out on top.

 

Of course this isn't going to help us against high intiative armies like the blasted Eldar and Dark Eldar. But hey, we're looking to fix Frost Weapons, not make them overpwoered.

[Chief Captain Redd]

 

 

Fluff and the extra attack would be my guess.

do you not get an extra attack for having a powerfist/maul combo anyway? As they are both specialist weapons?

 

 

Only when you attack with the Maul, the Maul is just a Melee weapon so it can gain the attack, but as the fist, as you pointed out, does infact have the specialist weapon USR it cannot.

[Rasclomalum]

I like the AP2 idea for frost swords, but I actually fear that might make them overpowered. AP2 at Initiative is a scary thing and worth quite a lot of points. 
 
... and then I look at the CSM codex and realise what Chaos pays for the Axe of Blind Fury. So forget it. AP2 frost swords is where it's at. 

 

It would be good for diversifying the Power Weapon selection as well. With AP2 frost swords, the choice between a Sword and a Wolf Claw would be a tactical one instead of one where you only pick the sword because you really prefer that aesthetic. Wolf Claw = great AP3 murder, Frost Sword = worse AP3 murder but better overall utility.

 

Question is, what would you do with the Frost Axe? 
 

 

do you not get an extra attack for having a powerfist/maul combo anyway? As they are both specialist weapons?

 

Nope. Power Maul + Powerfist gets one attack less than Power Maul + Frost Axe. 

[The Rose Princes]

So, all frost weapons do right now is increase your strength, but follow the same rules for power sword and power axe.

So, if we instead just increase the AP only, then adjusted the prices to 20, you would have an AP 2 Frost Blade or a +1Str AP 1 Unweildy Frost Axe, which would fill the space between Power Weapon & Power Fist while being as competitive, yet filling a different role than Wolf Claws. 

 

Where Wolf Claws are a made to hit/hurt no matter your skill or strength, a Frost Blade is made to make a precision cut but you still have to be skilled enough to hit and strong enough to hurt it, and the Frost Axe does all the work as long as you get a chance to lift that heavy head up over your head and just let gravity do the work for you. 

 

The only thing is the only real role for the Frost Axe is terminator and light vehicle hunting as you would only be at Str 5 (6 with fuious charge or on a TWM) so it would still limit it's usefulness.... not like it's being used now anyway.

[Rasclomalum]

AP2 on Frost Swords = solid. Not sure about the frost axes though, that AP1 is not going to be much of an advantage over regular power axes, is it? It would perform identically against infantry, and all the AP1 does is make it marginally more useful against vehicles (where fists and hammers do a better job anyway) on account of the AP1 and the effect that has on the penetration table. You're only going to penetrate AV10 on the roll of a 6 anyway, there are much better can openers in the Codex and you wouldn't pay premium for a frost axe when a power fist does the same job much better. The AP1 Frost Axe would be lacking a useful niche.

 

Nah, make Frost Weapon a power weapon category of its own. All frost weapons, be they swords, axes, mauls or Ash Williams chainsaw prostheses, should be S user, I user, AP2.  It's the gap they need to fill. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

Lol, Ash Williams chainsaw prosthesis. Actually come to think of it, I m surprised nobody made a conversion of that. It's something I think the Iron Hands would do, or a retractable chainsword into the hand.

 

Like I said, AP2 power weapon would give the Frost weapons the bite and utility it needs without being overpowered or making power fists and wolf claws obsolete. Still expensive at 20 points but would make our Wolf Guard almost, if not deadlier than even the famed Deathwing Knights.

 

On the other hand it might make the Wolves overpowered compared to CSM who keep received the short stick with every codex received. I can't believe I m actually pitying them now. CSM niche is supposed to be close combat but now even C:SM with its bikes and Chapter Master of Doom can probably match CSM bikers which I understand is one of the better CSM lists out there. Not to mention their silly Always Challenge rule which our Wolf Guard at least have the brains to decline when needed.

 

Sigh, balancing armies sure is tricky. Sadly that isn't even in the top 10 priority for GW.

[maverik_girl]

keep frost weapons as-is but give wolves a true grit... non of this nonsense with two-handed stuff or unwieldy balony! Hi I'm a super enhanced human being wearing power armor, with augmented strength who grew up in a death world, taught at an early age to hold and use an axe.

[Rasclomalum]

Are you saying that the wolves should disregard the unwieldy rule? Not happening. Thunder hammers at initative would be tremendously overpowered, and if you could swing an axe at initative, why would anyone ever take a sword?

[maverik_girl]

Are you saying that the wolves should disregard the unwieldy rule? Not happening. Thunder hammers at initative would be tremendously overpowered, and if you could swing an axe at initative, why would anyone ever take a sword?

Yes, but for FROST weapon types only. I didn't say anything about Thunder Hammers, don't throw words I didn't say. As for axe vs sword, as I've said in my previous post. Keep the rules as-is in the codex, just ignore the unwieldy and two-handed bull. It's just an idea and an opinion. RELAX.

[Grey Mage]

Well Id agree, just tossing out the unwieldy rule entirely would be a bit much.

 

Id give them the shred special rule as well as the strength bonus, keep the AP the same.

[Rasclomalum]

 

Are you saying that the wolves should disregard the unwieldy rule? Not happening. Thunder hammers at initative would be tremendously overpowered, and if you could swing an axe at initative, why would anyone ever take a sword?

Yes, but for FROST weapon types only. I didn't say anything about Thunder Hammers, don't throw words I didn't say. As for axe vs sword, as I've said in my previous post. Keep the rules as-is in the codex, just ignore the unwieldy and two-handed bull. It's just an idea and an opinion. RELAX.

 

I'm as calm as a summer sea, how about you relax?. You never said that the ignore unwieldy thingie should only apply to Frost Weapons. Now, the obvious problem with that idea is that Frost Swords would become superfluous, everyone going for a Frost Weapon would just go for the axe. 

Frost weapons are currently pretty much redundant, what with 6th edition rules changes making other options in the Codex both cheaper and better at the job Frost Weapons are meant to do. I maintain that the logical thing to do is make all Frost Weapons S user, I user, AP2. Then you'd have something like this:

 

Tier 1: 

 

Power Sword: Dunno how the help this sorry thing out. Wolf Claw beats it any day of the week. I guess the +1 attack from pairing it with a pistol and the ability of coming stock with Terminator Armour is its saving grace.

Power Maul: The weapon against 4+ and worse! 

Power Axe: The cheapest AP2 CCW in the Codex. You get +1S and AP2, at the cost of it being unwieldy.

 

Tier 2: 

 

Wolf Claw. A step up from the Power Sword. It's the go-to MEQ murderer. 

Frost weapons. Strike at initiative, user strength, and AP2. A step up from the tier 1 weapons, but you pay for it with increased cost. The ultimate utility weapon, just like the power weapons of old. Frost Weapons would be worse at killing 3+ than the Wolf Claw, and worse against 2+ than axes and Tier 3 weapons, but have the unique ability of being able to deal with both. 

 

Tier 3: 

 

Power fists, Thunder Hammers and Chainfists: These weapons are all AP2 and pack a woeful punch, but are the costliest weapons in the CCW arsenal and carry the disadvantage of being unwieldy.

 

 

Yeah, the tiering could perhaps be structured differently but this way, all weapons have their niches and perform different roles without making other choices redundant.

[Valerian]

I'd recommend something like the following profiles for our weapons:

 

 

Frost Axe

 

Range      S       AP     Type

    -           +2      2        Melee

                                    Two-Handed

                                    

Frost Blade

 

Range      S       AP     Type

    -           +1       3       Melee

                                    Shred

                                    

 

Chapter Relic - Frostfang

 

Range      S       AP     Type

    -           +1       3       Melee

                                    Rending

                                    Master-Crafted

 

Chapter Relic - The Axe Morkai (Two Profiles)

 

Range      S       AP     Type

    -           +1       3       Melee

                                    Shred                            

OR

 

Range      S       AP     Type

    -           x2      2        Melee

                                    Two-Handed

                                    Shred

                                    Unwieldy 

[Valerian]

With the above recommendations, you get some decent (IMHO) balance against other weapon types.  For example, there is still a trade-off between a Frost Axe and a Power Fist - the Fist gets you more strength (8 versus the Frost Axe's 6), but the Axe isn't Unwieldy, so it strikes at Initiative, which will be a great option, especially for Independent Characters that wouldn't want to sacrifice their high I value.

 

Likewise, the Frost Blade compares reasonably well to the Frost Axe - although it has a slightly lower Strength, and worse AP, it isn't Two-Handed, so you can pair with a Pistol, etc., for an extra Attack, and it gets Shred, to help out with Wounding overall.  So, a Character in Terminator Armour is likely to lean towards my version of the Frost Axe, while a Character in Runic Armour might lean towards the Frost Blade, and pair it with a Bolt or Plasma Pistol.

 

V

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

I had thought the meta seemed to be shifting away from at-Initiative AP<3 ever since the introduction of 6th edition rules. Giving any given Space Wolf character the ability to kill indiscriminately without the risks of Unwieldy seems against the general design ethos of this edition.

Of course, I haven't kept up on what goofery the Codices after the latest Chaos Space Marines one are capable of, I can't afford to drop fifty bucks that often anymore just to get what amounts to reading material, since I haven't had the wherewithal to game much either.

A note on the Axe of Blind Fury: Remember, the user is -1 to both WS and BS (hope you didn't give him a combi-melta), and has a chance to wreck himself before he checks himself. Though it is powerful, that is counterbalanced somewhat against the possibility of everything going horribly wrong forever for the wielder as he drops everything in the middle of combat to fight his own weapon and the enemy ROFLstomps his danglies.

We could start with the general idea of what a frost weapon is: a bladed chainweapon with Kraken teeth, no? Though in previous editions it's been represented as a power weapon and all power weapons in those editions ignored all armor saves, this edition has a bit more nuance, and so could these revered weapons.

As I understand it, frost weapons don't necessarily even have a power field, relying on the tearing quality of the Krakenteeth to shred armor and all the squishy blood-treats it contains. A mace or maul is not a bladed weapon. It is a bludgeon. Not really suitable for putting those chain-krakenteeth to work. A lance or spear is more of a pointed weapon, so neither is it.

 

Suppose a frost sword is a power sword with Shred that forces successful armor saves (i.e. 2+ saves) to be rerolled. A frost axe is a power axe with Shred and deals a second Wound to the target on a To-Wound roll of 6. Marginal increases in utility would merit only a marginal price increase over a regular power weapon. But that's to be expected of a weapon that's not an artefact and can be taken by, say, an entire unit and attached characters.

 

Ragnar and Logan's frostblades could have further rules.

 

[Valerian]

1. The "norm" is definitely AP2 = Unwieldy, but there are exceptions (Eldar Executioner comes to mind).

2. Not all Frost weapons are chain-style weapons with Kraken Teeth; that's how the blades are described, but not the axes (which is part of the reason why I gave the blades Shred, but not the axes).

 

V

[Rasclomalum]

-snip

 

This is how good design is done. Ideally no choice in a Codex should be redundant. I also dig making the Frost Blade a non-specialist, +1S Lightning Claw. You pay higher points for it than for the Wolf Claw anyway, then by rights it should provide adequate bang for the buck.

[d@n]

I would like to see frost weapons stay the same but with poison. Having shards of kraken teeth or what ever crystal like substance there made from, lodge in your body should be confer the poison rule

[frostclaw222]

I like the shred addition, but worry that might be a little to Khornate. The poison idea I like less, on principle. Valerian's breakout seems the best of what's around, though.