Frost Weapons - how can they be remedied?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Not sure what "Shred" USR does, but I'm still sold on just being naturally AP2, even if it is just at Strength User.

[The Rose Princes]

Shred is reroll wounds.... which is what the Wolf Claws already do. 

 

I'd rather go a direction that doesn't step on the metaphorical toes of our other weapons. 

 

 

USR that are under utilized:

 

Fleshbane (wounds on 2+)
Monster Hunter (reroll wounds on MC & FMC)

Rage (+2 attacks on the charge instead of +1 on the charge)

Rampage (+d3 attacks if outnumbered at the beginning of the fight sub phase)

Strikedown (target halves Initiative and movement until the end of the next turn)

Two Handed (never gets a bonus attack for having two weapons)

[MaveriK]

Shred is reroll wounds.... which is what the Wolf Claws already do. 

 

I'd rather go a direction that doesn't step on the metaphorical toes of our other weapons. 

 

 

USR that are under utilized:

 

Fleshbane (wounds on 2+)

Monster Hunter (reroll wounds on MC & FMC)

Rage (+2 attacks on the charge instead of +1 on the charge)

Rampage (+d3 attacks if outnumbered at the beginning of the fight sub phase)

Strikedown (target halves Initiative and movement until the end of the next turn)

Two Handed (never gets a bonus attack for having two weapons)

I like the idea of Monster Hunter. Frost weapons forged from monstrous creatures slain. Coming from a death world full of monsters and heroes hungry for glory.

[Valerian]

Shred is reroll wounds.... which is what the Wolf Claws already do. 

 

I'd rather go a direction that doesn't step on the metaphorical toes of our other weapons. 

 

 

USR that are under utilized:

 

Fleshbane (wounds on 2+)

Monster Hunter (reroll wounds on MC & FMC)

Rage (+2 attacks on the charge instead of +1 on the charge)

Rampage (+d3 attacks if outnumbered at the beginning of the fight sub phase)

Strikedown (target halves Initiative and movement until the end of the next turn)

Two Handed (never gets a bonus attack for having two weapons)

 

Wolf Claws do have Shred, but I included it in the proposed Frost Blade rules, as it seemed to be the best fit, for both rules and fluff perspective (Kraken-teeth chain blades, and all that).  I had considered Fleshbane, and that is definitely a great ability, but I didn't want to step on the toes of the Frost Weapons' iconic improved Strength feature.  A flat 2+ To Wound roll would make the +1/+2 Strength of Frost Blades/Axes redundant and unnecessary, and I didn't want to mess that up.  It would also make Ragnar's personal and group Furious Charge Strength increase redundant for his own Relic Frost Blade, the Frostfang.

 

Monster Hunter would definitely be worthy of consideration, but I don't think it would be worth the investment of points on its own.  The ability is too situational to put big points into, and wouldn't help a Frost Weapon outweigh the benefits of other choices (such as Power Fists, Wolf Claws, etc.).  I like that we already see the benefits of a Monster Hunter style rule in our Saga of the Beastslayer.

 

I did include the Two-handed rule for Frost Axes, as I felt it was appropriate fluff-wise, and helps to offset the Strength and AP advantages of Axes over Blades (thus making it less of a no-brainer to pick a Frost Axe over a Frost Blade - Shred for the Blades is the other bit that helps them compare.

 

In the end, I'd stick with my proposed versions.

 

Best,

 

Valerian

[skeletoro]

I like it, Valerian. I'm still a little leery of ap2 at initiative 4 or 5, on a non-relic. But maybe the points cost would be sufficient to balance it. A TDAWG with a frost axe currently sits at 43 points per model - within spitting distance of a hammernator. Hammernators have their advantages over such a hypothetical TDAWG, and with their 3+ save... I think they'd still beat them. TDAWGs wound about 5/6 times, and the TDAWG would reduce the expected number of wounds to 5/18 with their shields.

 

13/18 of the hammernators would strike back (assuming equal numbers), causing 65/108 wounds, which would be reduced to 130/324 of the tdawgs' numbers in casualties back. This leaves the hammernators at 234/324 remaining, and the tdawgs at 190/324 remaining. Hammernators come on top, somewhat narrowly, though the charge would definitely swing it in the favour of the TDAWG very quickly. And remember storm bolter overwatch fire and counterattack! With those, the TDAWG would probably win in most contexts. Funnily enough, if both units get an extra attack (charge/counter), this favours the wolf guard as they have higher initiative.

 

A 48 point combi plasma and frost axe combo would potentially be quite nice, too.

 

I have a headache so my maths could be off.

[viddar]

If were up to me I'd make frostblades a "relic" weapon with str +1 ap 2 and monster hunter. Then people could equip their lord how they see fit equipment wise.

[Grey Mage]

How would that increase options on ones Wolf Lords?

[viddar]

Mainly visually Im not a big fan of the different power weapon rules because it tends to lead more uniform loadouts and I like armies having a mix of different weapons.

[d@n]

Out of all the chapter specific blades, relic blade, blade encarmine, blade of caliban. The frost blade is arguably the best . With that in mind I don't see any reason to change its rules

[skeletoro]

One option for limiting valerian's frost axe (if deemed a tad too powerful) would be to only allow one wolf guard model in each pack to take one...? Or perhaps one for every 5 models, like heavy weapons are. And then allow wolf lords, wolf guard battle leaders, lone wolves, TWC etc to equip them too. Not nearly as restrictive as being a relic but still not completely spammable either.

[skeletoro]

Out of all the chapter specific blades, relic blade, blade encarmine, blade of caliban. The frost blade is arguably the best . With that in mind I don't see any reason to change its rules

It's mediocre at best. At a 5 point discount it would be worth consideration sometimes, but still would be often outshone by the wolf claw.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Out of all the chapter specific blades, relic blade, blade encarmine, blade of caliban. The frost blade is arguably the best . With that in mind I don't see any reason to change its rules

Arguably yes, (it's between frost and relic) but, that's not because frost blades are good, it's because the others suck. Relic is relatively solid, taking a SS removes the effect of two handed penalty anyway, shame about the AP3. Encarmine two handed but MC? Pass. Caliban. AP3 power axe, seriously?

 

I don't understand why AP2 at initiative is such a terrible thought. We had three editions where that was the norm for all power weapons, and nobody complained that PW striking before PFs was broken, at the same prices we still pay for the worse sword/axe (maul can be better, but only against certain, no PA, armies).

 

If they fixed power weapons, variable cost, axes not being unwieldy etc. then frost weapons could stay as +1S of the relevant type. But as things are, same price for AP2 S:User is reasonable, with a +1S version coming in the relic selection.

[logun]

Ap2 striking at iniative is reasonably common in my eldar force. dire swords, scorpian claws, and executioners are available to some of the exarchs. and many of the special characters, in fact one has an Ap1 weapon striking at iniative. would it be so overpowered if priced accordingly?. dark eldar incubi are entirely composed of AP2 weilding warriors.

i like the idea of limiting it though, i may need to be corrected here but wasn't a frost blade only available to HQ's in the 3rd edition codex(been a long time since i have seen it)

[Sigvard]

So a couple of thoughts to add to the pot. Make all frost weapons master crafted -  they are for all intense and purposes master-works to the Wolves.

 

Frost Blades with either of the below.

Strength - User, AP3, Master-Crafted, Fleshbane

Strength - +1, AP3, Master-Crafted, Rending

 

Frost Axes with either of the below.

Strength - +2, AP2, Master-Crafted, Strikedown

Strength - +2, AP2, master-Crafted, Instant Death -  Granted this one is a bit silly....