How many units do you field that can reliably kill AV13/14?

[Kilofix]

Adjusting my mix of units slightly for all my lists.

 

Wanted to know, how many units do you normally have in your ~2000 pt. list (of whatever detachment) that can reliably take on AV13/14?

 

In my usual 2K CSM lists - I usually have 5 units that can reliably handle AV13/14:

DP, Oblits, Las Pred, Firestorm Redoubt, and Melta Bikes.

 

That doesn't include other things that can glance like Noise Marines but I wouldn't consider them as reliable.

 

Then again, sometimes I don't see AV14 at all so I'm wondering if I should cut down on my anti-heavy AV mix and go more anti-infantry or just get more bodies on the table.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks for the opinions.

[Fibonacci]

This is for an Adeptus Sororitas list so ... yeah.  There will be a few melta equiped units.

 

1 or 2 Troops with 2 meltaguns

2 Fast Attack with 4 meltaguns (Scout and Out Flank)

1 unit of 5 to 8 models all with chainfists

2 to 4 Multi-melta Immolators

2 tanks with d6 S8, AP1 missiles  -- but I don't like to use these against AV13+

Rending unit on the quadgun.

 

With all that, the only ones that go after heavy armor specifically are the two Fast Attack squads.  The rest is for everything CSM would use plasma for.  This is actually less than what I used to carry but with the changes in 6th I have been putting in more flamers just about anywhere I can.

[Azash]

That depends on the point level. That being said I tend to run combi meltas on my tac squad sergeants and usually one squad is a combiflamer and meltagun squad. So two to three just on my troop choices and usually there is a MM somewhere in the list in addition to that.

 

So at least 2 and as many as 8 in a 2000 pt single force org chart.

[Excubitor]

I rarely face any vehicles with AV14, and almost never more than 1. That said, I always have something to take it on.

 

On a mech list I'm currently working on;

Ultramarine CT

Tarnus Vale in a Land Raider (so 2 BS5 Tanks Hunter TL-Lascannons)

Chronus on a pred with autocannon and 2 las sponsons (BS 5)

Assault cannon and Multi-melta on a LR Redeemer

Razorback with TL-Lascannon

Razorback with TL-Assault Cannon

Melta bombs on 2 squad sergeants

 

On a list I ran with most of last year;

Imperial Fist CT

Orbital Bombardment

2x Dreads with TL-Lascannons

Terminator Squad with Assault Cannon

2x Razorbacks with TL-Assault Cannon

Devastator Squad - 2x Lascannons, 2x Missile Launchers

 

Mostly, very few vehicles have AV 14/13 on more than one facing, so I try  and set up flank/rear shots by using these units to flank. It;s near impossible to protect against fire from 3 sides and not show a non-AV13/14 shot to the enemy is you aren't a Land Raider or Monolith.

 

Plus, they have the side effect of being very useful against MC, which I do face a fair bit of around here.

[Nusquam]

If I'm doing Raven Guard I usually have melta stern. Raptors have 16+ lascannons. Carcharodons have chainfists, DCCWs and (soon) the Caestus Ram. I usually play around 2k.

[greggles]

Predator (or legion tank), vindicator, stormraven, storm talon, ironclads.

 

I generally face 3-4 av13 skimmers per game, so have to have an answer to it.

[Grey Mage]

At 2,000pts Id feel naked taking less than 5-6 units that can do so reliably, and if escalation was in common effect Id say less than 8 would be silly to me.

[Axagoras]

at 1750 I run 3, 2 5 man sternguard squads with 5 melta guns, and a tac suqad with 2 melta guns, guess the chapter master counts as a 4th since hes got orbital bombardment and a thunderhammer. and my 3 squads of hyperios together can do work vs av 13 so 5 i guess

[Ishagu]

I take 5 normally.

Even if my opponent has no vehicles the weapons still bring the pain to infantry and MC's :-)

[MagicMan]

Usually 3, in a 1000 point game. 

 

An all Las Pred, a Missile Devastator squad, and a Melta Sternguard Drop Pod squad.

 

Even if you find yourself lacking targets, you can still headhunt heavy infantry like Ork Nobs or Tau Crisis Suits.

[Azash]

Are we considering str 8 non melta/armorbane a "reliable way to deal with armor 13/14"?.

[MagicMan]

You mean the missile launchers? In a 1000 point game, they're not a bad option. Ive got the Las-Pred and the Melta Stern for reliability, the Missiles for flexibility. Four strength eight shots isnt bad anyway.

 

I thought glancing to death was all the rage nowadays? :P

[GreyCrow]

I mainly play at 750 points, but I usually have 3 units that can deal with AV13 and 14.

2 Lascannons in Tactical squads

1 Melta Bomb on my Jump Pack HQ

 

I also have 2 Plasma Cannons in a Deva squad that can hope to glance AV13 with some luck !

 

At the 1500 pts range, I also bring a sternguard squad with 2 Multi Meltas, and I'm trying to include a stormraven with a multi melta in it as well. Occasionnally, I run 2 Landspeeders with MM/HF combination.

 

This is because I like my units *not* to have a very dedicated role in mind, but can do the odd job. In my current meta, I also have noticed that it's useless looking to have the firepower to blow up a Land Raider each turn, and I'm unlikely to encounter more than 2 at 1500 points.

 

Finally, I'm using Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, and run my tactical squads in Rhinos. I have a few maneuves using the scout moves that allow me to get the side armour (and thus bypass most AV13 by hitting on AV11 or 12 side armour).

I have yet to face an AV13+ all around except a Ghost Ark and Land Raiders, and then again, a single pen is enough to beat it down to AV11.

 

By the way, what are the tanks that have AV13 on the side amour, except from the ones in Codex: Marines ?

[mince on toast]

This is for an Adeptus Sororitas list so ... yeah.  There will be a few melta equiped units.

 

1 or 2 Troops with 2 meltaguns

2 Fast Attack with 4 meltaguns (Scout and Out Flank)

1 unit of 5 to 8 models all with chainfists

2 to 4 Multi-melta Immolators

2 tanks with d6 S8, AP1 missiles  -- but I don't like to use these against AV13+

Rending unit on the quadgun.

 

With all that, the only ones that go after heavy armor specifically are the two Fast Attack squads.  The rest is for everything CSM would use plasma for.  This is actually less than what I used to carry but with the changes in 6th I have been putting in more flamers just about anywhere I can.

 

yep Sisters have more than enough fire power to destroy vehicles, if that fails chopping armour up with repentia is way more fun

 

never leave the convent with out someone having a eviscerator for some x 2 str amourbane goodness

[Cornelias]

at 1750 I run 3, 2 5 man sternguard squads with 5 melta guns, and a tac suqad with 2 melta guns, guess the chapter master counts as a 4th since hes got orbital bombardment and a thunderhammer. and my 3 squads of hyperios together can do work vs av 13 so 5 i guess

 

Surely you mean combi-meltas on your sternguard or you'd be better off taking a command squad instead?

[riddles]

i don't see that much AV14 nowadays. AV13 is more common, but not by much.

 

3 tank hunting tl lascannons

6 tank hunting missile launchers (wouldn't consider them if they didn't have tank hunters, but they do a job)

3 grav cannons

3 tl melta guns

lysander

[Stickeh]

At 1500, a ten man unit of sternguard with 6 x combi meltas (splits into 2 x 5 man squads), a 4 x ML dev squad, a 5 man scout squad with combi melta and melta bombs and a unit of grav cannon and ML dev centurions, so 5 technically. At 2000 I bump this up to 6-7 minimum.

 

Edit: forgot to add scouts.

[Naminé]

I have 4 meltaguns in a drop-pod, 4 lascannons, a potential 21 grav shots, 4 meltas on bikes and 2 lots of fast moving meltabombs at 1750.  Sometimes it's only just enough :p

[minigun762]

Here is a related question, how many melta guns does a single unit need to make you confident they will destroy their target?

Just 1?

Two, special and combi maybe?

Three?

Five?

Ten?!

[Hellios]

Here is a related question, how many melta guns does a single unit need to make you confident they will destroy their target?

Just 1?

Two, special and combi maybe?

Three?

Five?

Ten?!

 

That depends on a lot of things. But I find squads of 5 or 6 Fire Dragons rarely fail to kill a foe with an AV. 10 Are better for melting squads of terminators and the like... Not that they are the best option available to an Eldar player for that.

 

Does the squad only need to hit one unit? Does it need to hit multiple units? Does it need to hit its target early in the game, or can you wait until the mid- or end-game? Is the squad a dedicated anti-tank unit, or has it got another role? Hell, Its anti-armour role may be its secondary function. My Grey Hunters often carry Melta because I find they don't have too many problems with infantry.

 

I think 4 is a good number. It gives you a chance if you miss, or fluff pen rolls. 2 Is fine for a non-dedicated unit, Cheap, small 'suicide' units may take less; combi-melta termicides, or scouting scouts in a speeder could be consider to be this kind of unit.

[minigun762]

Hellios,

I had originally imagined 1 unit being used to destroy one target.

 

 

[Hellios]

Hellios,

I had originally imagined 1 unit being used to destroy one target.

 

 

 

Melta should hit (with BS4), and it should pen... and it is as likely to blow the target up if it pens as it is to do anything else. I would say 3, but that assumes no cover or any other rules that will help keep the target alive. Also, it is all luck in the end. A serious dedicated tank hunting unit should have at least 3 melta-weapons (if that is the way it is going). Although it really comes down to points cost. A single landspeeder with a MM isn't a bad anti-tank platform... But you can't rely on it to do the job by itself.

[DarkGuard]

Here is a related question, how many melta guns does a single unit need to make you confident they will destroy their target?

Just 1?

Two, special and combi maybe?

Three?

Five?

Ten?!

 

3 I believe was the best number, but in the past 2 has been enough for me. But with 3 you hit with 2, and you're most likely going to pen with one, more likely both, and then it's a straight 50/50.

 

Most units that can hold 4 or more tend to be slower units which rely on transport, infiltration etc to get close. The fast melta platforms are more likely to be between 1-3.

[Naminé]

4 for me. My bikes have 4 and 2 sets of meltabombs too, though that is in part because they take some losses before they reach their targets.

[Fibonacci]

Here is a related question, how many melta guns does a single unit need to make you confident they will destroy their target?

 

2 has a good chance but 3 is much more reliable. (3 shots, 2 hits, 1.6 pens on AV14, 80% chance of explodes!)

 

This is why I say my Dominions are the only dedicated heavy armor killers.  They get 4 melta shots (5 if I give one to the superior) and can make those shots ignore cover.  That's a dead anything upto an Imperial Knight.