Modelling the Burning Brand of Skalathrax

[Dam13n]

There are conflicting views on swapping the bike's combi-bolter for another weapon.

 

Personally I'd be fine with it so long as it was swapped for something suitable, say a Plasma Pistol, a Combi-weapon or the Burning Brand as they are ranged weapons.

It does get a little silly when people suggest swapping them for a Melee weapon though...

The argument against generally focuses around the fact that the combi-bolter is mounted on the bike, rather than being held by the model riding it.  So can't be exchanged.

 

Best answer is to ask your gaming group, if they're OK with it then go for it.  (Though magnetising the weapons would be a good idea just in case they change their minds.)

[Iron Skull Mask]

There are conflicting views on swapping the bike's combi-bolter for another weapon.

 

(...)

 

The argument against generally focuses around the fact that the combi-bolter is mounted on the bike, rather than being held by the model riding it.  So can't be exchanged.

 

(...)

 

The codex clearly states that with biker squads you can either exchange the combi-bolter of the bike, or the handheld weapon of the biker with a special weapon. Also GW is selling kits to model this. No discussion there. In case of meele weapons and the burning brand, I'd say you are not allowed to do so, as the codex has no entry for allowing such swaps. If it's just about the look of the model though, I don't think opponents would complain about it, as long as you don't try to get an advantage out of it (meaning an extra attack).

[Montuhotep]

Apart from the Dimensional Key, Chaos Artifacts are noted as replacing one of the model's weapons. Since the model can be on foot just as easily as mounted on a bike or similar the clear inference is that it replaces one of the models own weapons and not that of any mount.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Ah, this old chestnut. I had fun with this last time, but I'll argue more concisely and put all of it in one post.

 

Really, it depends on if you're using RAW or almost universally used conventions we, as gamers, abide by to make the game work. After all, going by RAW, we break bikes as a unit classification, as I will demonstrate.

 

Time for a wall of citations to give everybody a base of understanding:

 

Chaos Space Marines, page 90, under Using the Army List:

 

"5. Wargear: This section details the
weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with."

 

Chaos Space Marines, page 91, under Ranged and Artefact:

 

"A model may replace one weapon
with one of the following:" (unless said Artefact doesn't replace a weapon, but I digress)

Chaos Space Marines, page 66, under Chaos Bikes:

 

"Models with a Chaos bike change their unit type to
Bike... A Chaos bike is fitted with a single twin-linked boltgun."

 

Chaos Space Marines, page 100, under Chaos Bikers:

 

"Wargear:

Power armor

Bolt pistol

Close combat weapon

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Chaos bike." 

Chaos Space Marines, page 100, also under Chaos Bikers:

 

"...up to two Chaos Bikers may replace either
their close combat weapon or their bike's twin-linked boltgun with one
of the following..."

Warhammer 40k Rulebook, page 12:

 

"During the shooting phase, units armed
with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy... can be nominated to make
shooting attacks."

Warhammer 40k Rulebook, page 51, under More Than One Weapon:

 

"...if a model has
more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot..."

 

Warhammer 40k Rulebook, page 45, under Bikes:

 

"Shooting:

 

Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike."

 

"Why all the citations, I_D?" you ask, and justifiably so.

 

From the rulebook we gather that a model with a ranged weapon may shoot, and a model armed with more than one shooting weapon must choose which one to shoot. Therefore, since a model armed with a single weapon certainly cannot choose weapons with which it is not armed, we conclude that it must choose that weapon. Furthermore, each Bike in a unit may fire one weapon. Finally, each unit type (Jump, Jet, etc.) refers to the models themselves and not the wargear (Chaos bike) that grants them that classification; so it's intuitive that the Bikes section would function the same- the Bike's shooting rules refer to the rider, as that is his unit classification.

 

From the Chaos Space Marines Codex, we determine that a model on a Chaos bike changes its unit type to Bike. From the Wargear section in the Chaos Bikers unit, we determine that being on a Chaos bike does not arm the Chaos Bikers with twin-linked bolters, though twin-linked bolters are fitted to any given Chaos bike.

 

In the Wargear section we'll note that the relevant section states that "a model may replace one weapon..." which seems to indicate that he may replace any weapon with which he is armed (it is not specific, however).

 

If a model on a Chaos Bike is not armed with the twin-linked bolters, then he may not replace them with Wargear. This is supported by the Chaos Bikers entry options, where they are explicitly given the option of replacing the twin-linked bolters with special weapons. However, we must also note something else: since a model on a Chaos bike is not armed with the weapons on his Chaos bike, he cannot fire any weapons mounted on his Chaos bike, as per my citations from the main rulebook. Therefore, no Bike unit in the game whose wargear entry is worded this way may fire any weapon save those carried by the rider.

 

This is where we, as gamers, almost universally make a convention amongst each other. We play by the unspoken rule that models classified as Bikes may fire weapons which are mounted on their (Chaos) bikes. The simplest convention by which to do this is to say that models classified as Bikes are, by virtue of being mounted on their (Chaos) bikes, armed with the weapons mounted on said bike. If they are armed with the weapons mounted on their (Chaos) bike, they may thus exchange them for wargear as noted above.

 

The roundabout convention used for the explicit purpose of denying models on (Chaos) bikes from exchanging a twin-linked bolter for a different ranged weapon (or Artefact) would be to say that models classified as Bikes invent a game mechanic completely without precedent by which either they fire the weapons mounted on their (Chaos) bikes or the (Chaos) bike fires the weapon itself (as a piece of Wargear) using the Ballistic Skill of the rider- either of which is thoroughly counterintuitive and serves only to a) hamper creative conversions like Excessus' jetbike Sorcerer and my own planned conversions using a Skull Cannon of Khorne, and b     ) deny the character on a (Chaos) bike one piddling Attack in assault.

 

Therefore, I side with the more intuitive convention.

 

This is pretty "Official Rules" as far as post topics go, but the legality and effectiveness of a conversion might affect how someone chooses to model the taking of the Burning Brand (or a combi-melta, or whatever), so I'd say it's relevant enough.

 

EDIT: Mechatendrils work virtually the same way, except in the rules for that piece of Wargear it specifically outlines a game mechanic by which the Warpsmith may use his Mechatendril weapons alongside the weapons with which he is armed. So this sort of supports that by RAW, models can't use the weapons mounted on their (Chaos) bikes, since such items have no such rules.

 

[brother_contagion]

Ah, this old chestnut. I had fun with this last time, but I'll argue more concisely and put all of it in one post.

 

Really, it depends on if you're using RAW or almost universally used conventions we, as gamers, abide by to make the game work. After all, going by RAW, we break bikes as a unit classification, as I will demonstrate.

 

Time for a wall of citations to give everybody a base of understanding:

 

Chaos Space Marines, page 90, under Using the Army List:

 

"5. Wargear: This section details the

weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with."

 

Chaos Space Marines, page 91, under Ranged and Artefact:

 

"A model may replace one weapon

with one of the following:" (unless said Artefact doesn't replace a weapon, but I digress)

 

Chaos Space Marines, page 66, under Chaos Bikes:

 

"Models with a Chaos bike change their unit type to

Bike... A Chaos bike is fitted with a single twin-linked boltgun."

 

Chaos Space Marines, page 100, under Chaos Bikers:

 

"Wargear:

Power armor

Bolt pistol

Close combat weapon

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Chaos bike."

 

Chaos Space Marines, page 100, also under Chaos Bikers:

 

"...up to two Chaos Bikers may replace either

their close combat weapon or their bike's twin-linked boltgun with one

of the following..."

 

Warhammer 40k Rulebook, page 12:

 

"During the shooting phase, units armed

with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy... can be nominated to make

shooting attacks."

 

Warhammer 40k Rulebook, page 51, under More Than One Weapon:

 

"...if a model has

more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot..."

 

Warhammer 40k Rulebook, page 45, under Bikes:

 

"Shooting:

 

Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike."

 

"Why all the citations, I_D?" you ask, and justifiably so.

 

From the rulebook we gather that a model with a ranged weapon may shoot, and a model armed with more than one shooting weapon must choose which one to shoot. Therefore, since a model armed with a single weapon certainly cannot choose weapons with which it is not armed, we conclude that it must choose that weapon. Furthermore, each Bike in a unit may fire one weapon. Finally, each unit type (Jump, Jet, etc.) refers to the models themselves and not the wargear (Chaos bike) that grants them that classification; so it's intuitive that the Bikes section would function the same- the Bike's shooting rules refer to the rider, as that is his unit classification.

 

From the Chaos Space Marines Codex, we determine that a model on a Chaos bike changes its unit type to Bike. From the Wargear section in the Chaos Bikers unit, we determine that being on a Chaos bike does not arm the Chaos Bikers with twin-linked bolters, though twin-linked bolters are fitted to any given Chaos bike.

 

In the Wargear section we'll note that the relevant section states that "a model may replace one weapon..." which seems to indicate that he may replace any weapon with which he is armed (it is not specific, however).

 

If a model on a Chaos Bike is not armed with the twin-linked bolters, then he may not replace them with Wargear. This is supported by the Chaos Bikers entry options, where they are explicitly given the option of replacing the twin-linked bolters with special weapons. However, we must also note something else: since a model on a Chaos bike is not armed with the weapons on his Chaos bike, he cannot fire any weapons mounted on his Chaos bike, as per my citations from the main rulebook. Therefore, no Bike unit in the game whose wargear entry is worded this way may fire any weapon save those carried by the rider.

 

This is where we, as gamers, almost universally make a convention amongst each other. We play by the unspoken rule that models classified as Bikes may fire weapons which are mounted on their (Chaos) bikes. The simplest convention by which to do this is to say that models classified as Bikes are, by virtue of being mounted on their (Chaos) bikes, armed with the weapons mounted on said bike. If they are armed with the weapons mounted on their (Chaos) bike, they may thus exchange them for wargear as noted above.

 

The roundabout convention used for the explicit purpose of denying models on (Chaos) bikes from exchanging a twin-linked bolter for a different ranged weapon (or Artefact) would be to say that models classified as Bikes invent a game mechanic completely without precedent by which either they fire the weapons mounted on their (Chaos) bikes or the (Chaos) bike fires the weapon itself (as a piece of Wargear) using the Ballistic Skill of the rider- either of which is thoroughly counterintuitive and serves only to a) hamper creative conversions like Excessus' jetbike Sorcerer and my own planned conversions using a Skull Cannon of Khorne, and b ) deny the character on a (Chaos) bike one piddling Attack in assault.

 

Therefore, I side with the more intuitive convention.

 

This is pretty "Official Rules" as far as post topics go, but the legality and effectiveness of a conversion might affect how someone chooses to model the taking of the Burning Brand (or a combi-melta, or whatever), so I'd say it's relevant enough.

 

EDIT: Mechatendrils work virtually the same way, except in the rules for that piece of Wargear it specifically outlines a game mechanic by which the Warpsmith may use his Mechatendril weapons alongside the weapons with which he is armed. So this sort of supports that by RAW, models can't use the weapons mounted on their (Chaos) bikes, since such items have no such rules.

That's a lot to say, lol, but it does make sense. Thanks for your help! Sorry for changing the topic, but I was going to convert a Burning Brand for a Chaos Lord on a Bike and just wanted to know if I could do that and still have a pistol/power ax for +1 attack. Thanks again though.

[Sception]

It's a lot of words, but what it all comes down to is 'it's argued both ways, talk to your regular opponents or event organizer before assuming you can do it.

[MaliGn]

Back on topic, just use the gun arm from the old 'chaos lord with kai gun' figure to represent the brand. There must be a few of him still knocking around somewhere...

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Back on topic...

 

This is pretty "Official Rules" as far as post topics go, but the legality and effectiveness of a conversion might affect how someone chooses to model the taking of the Burning Brand (or a combi-melta, or whatever), so I'd say it's relevant enough.

 

...just use the gun arm from the old 'chaos lord with kai gun'

figure to represent the brand. There must be a few of him still knocking

around somewhere...

 

Was there ever an official Kai Gun miniature produced? I only remember seeing conversions from heavy bolters and the like.

[Sception]

There was.  It was on the old metal terminator lord, the one that was replaced by the current plastic guy.

[MaliGn]

 

Was there ever an official Kai Gun miniature produced? I only remember seeing conversions from heavy bolters and the like.

It was the only daemon weapon from that codex that actually had an official model, outside of special characters and greater daemons. One could argue that this is still the case.

 

PS. Wasn't trying to be snarky, just trying to prevent the whole thread devolving into the can they can't they bike thing again.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Wow, the whole time this guy has been in production I never knew he had alternate arms. Good catch, guys, I only ever saw pics of him with the sword/combi-melta.

 

 

[Sception]

Yeah, that's the one.   I'm not a big fan of it, as the kai gun was supposed to be a bolt weapon, but the model they made for it is clearly some sort of plasma thing.

 

I do like that terminator HQ model, though.  Not so much as a lord, but I think it makes a great terminator sorcerer.

[MaliGn]

Yeah, since no-one took the kai gun anyway it was a fairly redundant option,however I think it could easily make for a decent brand, looks a lot more special than some random heavy flamer/flamer/chaos gargoyle kitbash. Of course that's just me.

[Sception]

II took the kai gun all the time. It was one of my favorite pieces of kit in the old book. My chaos lord was specifically converted to be carrying one:

 

(warning, my old paint scheme was a bit of an eyesore)

 

...

 

 

...

 

 

...

 

 

(I warned you)

 

 

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Malisteen/Black%20Legion/Mojo.jpg

[Castellan Cato]

It's mojo-jojo!!! Awesome idea mali

[Sception]

Thanks. Mojo's my warpsmith now, though not much of the old model made it into the new conversion (just the head, really).  Still need's painting.