Scoring with CSM

[lcfr]

'Newcomer' to CSM from the ancient past of 4th Edition....yeah, time moves weirdly in the warp...

 

My question is this: as far as army design goes, what's standard fare for Troops in CSM armies? I mean, beyond the conventional wisdom that Marines are poop and Cultists are the go-to.

 

Given that our Troops options are either A) relatively poor or B) expensive (when you field units like Noise Marines or 1K Sons as Troops, for example), how do veteran CSM players get by in the Troops department?

 

Run 2-3 even at around 1500pt games and just use the crushing power of our Heavy Support or Elites to mow the enemy down and deny objectives?

[Spacefrisian]

Who says our elitists are poop? 20 man infiltrating Plaguemarines and 20 Man Noisemarines both with Feel no pain are realy a pain to any opponent.

But than again, cultists are good to, 35 with Mark of Tzeentch is cheap and alot tougher than they look at first sight (scratch cheap, they are dirtcheap instead)

Also standard 10 man CSM units in a Rhino with vengeance icon are pretty solid if you ask me, not super expansive and capable of holding there ground.

[Fibonacci]

I typically have squads of 6 CSM with either a plasmagun or a flamer.  No marks, no powerweapon, just as cheap as possible.  Half will have rhinos with havoc launchers.

 

I will also take 1 cultist blob and almost always have daemon allies with 16 daemonettes per squad.

 

This gives me at least 4 scoring units even in low point games.

[Brother Heinrich]

I've got 2 ten-man squads, unmarked, with double plasma and a meltabomb champion in rhino. I've just added a 7 man plague marine squad with double melta and a powerfist sergeant, but I have yet to see how they perform. The chaos marines haven't done anything amazing, but they do their job and hold objectives.

[Minsc]

It depends on my list, but I generally have at least 2 units of cultists and 2 units of cult-troops (assuming I have unlocked them as troops).

 

My current World Eater-list that I'll be bringing to a 1995-pts tourney only has 1x16 cultists and 2x8 berzerkers (in Rhinos) as troops.

 

But then I have 3 FA and 3 HS as well, so I don't mind playing Scouring/Big Guns Never Tire. 

[Sception]

I run 2x10 cultists naked in reserve and 2x10 CSMs with pwep & meltabomb, 2xplasma, and vets (as req'd by the black legion supplement), in rhinos. It's nothing revolutionary. I've proxied many alternatives (big squads infiltrating with huron, cult units, chosenspam, even squads deploying via dreadclaw or kharybdis). Some seemed more effective or interesting than others, but for regular games I stick mostly to the same old same old, partially because the csms are painted, and mostly because that's just what I like aesthetically, and my chaos marines are more display pieces than game pieces these days.

[lcfr]

I run 2x10 cultists naked in reserve and 2x10 CSMs with pwep & meltabomb, 2xplasma, and vets (as req'd by the black legion supplement), in rhinos. It's nothing revolutionary. 

 

Hmmm I have a somewhat similar set-up in mind at the moment; less Chosen and more cultists, but similar idea. If you have a chance and find yourself in the Army Lists forum, would you care to comment on my Black Legion list? 

[Trevak Dal]

I think despite what people want to believe, Marines Belong In Rhinos.  The "Vehicles suck" line is Bull:cuss.  They will either keep your boys alive for a turn or two, or they will allow you to move 12+ inches a turn, which you can't normally do if you can't make bikes troops, or Assault Marines troops (which we can't), or if you hide them can allow for late game gambits of seizing or contesting objectives.

 

I wish there was a vehicle jacking mechanic...like if you were playing against guard you could assault a chimera and attempt to assume control of it, and it would be yours for the rest of the game if the Guard player didn't try and jack it back.  That'd be badass-and totally Pirate "What's yours is ours," lol.

[chillin]

10 csm - 2 plaz, champ naked (or maybe w a combiweapon if have a few xtra pts) , in rino . I just cant do those no-csm , csm armies everyone runs now.

[lcfr]

So help me lay the conventional wisdom on Cultists/No-CSM Troops to rest, then....Cultists don't provide much in the way of firepower or CC, and they die in droves, so why are they so popular? 

 

I'm not being facetious, I really want to understand the logic, because I just don't see it. 

[Spacefrisian]

Cultists are cheap, and aptly named cannonfodder.

[Tenebris]

Usually my lists have 1-3 squads of power armor infantry (10 CSM, 2x Plasma Guns, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon) and 2x 20 cultists. Depending on the opponent I face and the threats I expect I usually put either a squad of cultists or a squad of marines in reserve. I also had good results with the trusty old Rhino, especially when you tank rush things from an objective and cap it with your infantry. 

 

Overall both units stay in the fight till the last turn though I had some nasty rolls with discipline on marines. But I have found that a good use of cover, a good support and some wise positioning can keep the cultists and the marines operative for the duration of the entire game. I think I will also switch one plasma gun for an autocannon for added range and strength in order to make even a static squad a reliable source of wounds on my adversary. 

 

It is wise to consider even a flamer as an alternative to a plasma gun since more and more we will be facing horde armies and the flamers always do their thing. In the end both basic options are reliable to score though are not even near to the killer levels of the other troop elements of the other books. An argument can be made for cult troops but those perform on occasional basis in my case. Though I must say that facing an ever increasing tide of wraith armies, MC armies and what not I think I will have to find the points for a Plague Marine squad, those guys never disappoint. 

[the jeske]

So help me lay the conventional wisdom on Cultists/No-CSM Troops to rest, then....Cultists don't provide much in the way of firepower or CC, and they die in droves, so why are they so popular? 

 

I'm not being facetious, I really want to understand the logic, because I just don't see it. 

unupgraded csm cost more then cultists , but aren't much better , they die like normal meq to stuff that kills meq [and there is a lot of it] , but don't have the important stuff [ATKNF, combat tactics] . When tooled up to not just be hidden all game , they cost a ton of points and suddenly PMs are better option then them [because tooled up they still don't have the important stuff] . Worse thing when tooled up they cost like elite [not as slot , but high cost] units and take away the points from stuff that actualy does the killing in marine armies [Dark mace princes , lords/sorc , bikers+HQs, helldrakes, oblits] . So if no matter what set up csm are rather meh [runing 5 with a special is probably the "best" way , but at 1500 cultists are more point efficient] , then cultists are taken and be not tricked that cultists are good in anyway . They have a ton of problems themselfs , they just cost less . If someone saves a 160pts buying cultists and not csm for his army , then it is almost a whole helldrake or two oblits , and both of those are more important to csm then if they troops are +3 or no save.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've had fairly good luck with a 9 man thousand son squad and sorcerer in a rhino with combi plasma and a 10 strong chaos marine squad with plasma gun, vets, autocannon, lightning claw and combi plasma in a similar rhino.
I used to always take the havok launcher, but recently I've been finding it doesn't seem to have enough punch, maybe if it was 10pts it would be brilliant.

[Spacefrisian]

I get the idea that no one is willing to infest the extra 25 points to make them stay in place.

[Fibonacci]

So help me lay the conventional wisdom on Cultists/No-CSM Troops to rest, then....Cultists don't provide much in the way of firepower or CC, and they die in droves, so why are they so popular? 

 

I'm not being facetious, I really want to understand the logic, because I just don't see it. 

They are the fewest points possible for a scoring unit to hold a backfield objective.  Keep them away from the fighting and have them sit on a flag.

[Sception]

So help me lay the conventional wisdom on Cultists/No-CSM Troops to rest, then....Cultists don't provide much in the way of firepower or CC, and they die in droves, so why are they so popular?

 

I'm not being facetious, I really want to understand the logic, because I just don't see it.

 

pretty much what jeske said. Cultists hardly do anything, but they hardly cost anything, either. You can take 2x10 in reserve for only 100 points, and by the time they show up from your table edge to shuffle onto your backfield objectives, the enemy's units should be up to their elbows dealing with your actual killy units, often allowing them to earn you two victory points with hardly any effort or points investment.

 

Our other arguably decent backfield campers in our main dex are msu noise marines with a blaster master, and yeah, they aren't too pricey, and have a long range gun allowing them to actually contribute something offensively while sitting in our back line, but every squad of five of them costs more than two squads of cultists, and since they start on the table, before your short range stuff is all up in the enemy's throat, it's not uncommon to see a unit of them wiped off the map by some long range, ignores cover unit before they ever get to do anything, and without your opponent even feeling like they had to waste much attention on them.

 

The remaining, not-very-good backfield camper is basic chaos marines, and they you either take min and expect to do nothing with them all game due to their short range, in which case they cost more than 10 cultists, die about as easily, and contribute just as little apart from camping, or you take ten for an auto or las cannon, but then they cost more than three units of cultists. And, more significantly, they cost more than a unit of cultists + a squad of autohavocs, so if you just wanted a backfield camper plus some guns, you could have gotten more guns elsewise, plus kept your campers safer by keeping them off the board for a couple turns + giving your opponent something else to shoot at.

 

You can skip backfield campers altogether, but that's often leaving victory points on the table that you could have grabbed via reserved cultists with very minimal investment, which is why MSU cultists are taken at all.

 

 

Now, for forward objectives, CSMs in rhinos are generally better than cultists. The rhino reduces their deployment footprint, making them easier to hide on set up, and can if you're lucky help get them into range for their short range weaponry, which isn't terrible even if it is coming in a bit overpriced. Plagues in rhinos are generally better than CSMs - fewer bodies, but T5 and FNP means they're about equally resilient despite the squad costing less overall, and offensively you get a higher special weapon per point concentration out of them.

 

I don't put much stock in berzerkers. Some claim to have gotten some decent utility out of them, but for me they always contribute less per point than basic CSMs with MoK and exccweps, which in turn contribute less per point than basic CSMs without those upgrades, so... yeah, that's just my experience of them, and that was back before the new 6e book, which only changed them to make MoK worse.

 

There's something to be said for sonic blaster squads in rhinos as well, at least, if you're taking a slaaneshi lord for the MSU blaster master squads to begin with, though the cost per resiliance ratio is not very favorable for a scoring unit. Likewise, for black legion, Chosen are worth mentioning, but cost per resilience is again a painful strike against them, at least as your primary scoring. A unit or two isn't terrible, whether offensive with rhinos or infiltrate (via huron) and special weapons, or defensive msu with an auto or lascannon (in which case see the above comments on msu noise marines with a blastmaster), but I wouldn't rely on them as primary mainstay scoring units in either case

 

 

Now, on both fronts, you are arguably better served by daemonic allies. daemonettes, while fragile, are fast and killy and can be purchased reasonably in bulk to walk, or can try and deep strike off a seeker icon. MSU plaguebearers don't cost all that much more than cultists, are a good bit more durable at range, and can deep strike onto any unattended objectives - since they aren't trying to get close to enemy units for short range shooty, the lack of mitigation isn't as much of an issue for them. I've seen big plague units with FNP from a herald do well as offensive scoring deep striking off of a plague drone icon in a nurgle/undivided list. Deep striking 11 man horror squads can also provide some respectable firepower & forward objective grabbing, though deep striking within range without help can get more risky than I'd like (a seeker squad with a banner can help a little, while also being quite respectable as a fast & killy if somewhat fragile unit on its own). Yeah, you might leave the enemy with FNP for the rest of the game, but the high likelihood of picking off special weapons and squad leaders with precision shots considering the whole unit's firepower is delivered by the squad leader will often make up for it. Even bloodletters can be alright, provided you mostly play against marines and either don't see terminators often or have some other means of dealing with them.

 

Iirc, allied guard can also score for us (you don't need to be battle brothers to score, right? It's honestly been a while since I've used them), so there's another possibility. A guard platoon can bring in some heavy weapon teams for a reasonable amount of points, and do a decent job manning ADLs or the like, and vets in a chimera compare pretty well to rhino riding CSMs as well.

 

I haven't looked much at our other possible allies - necrons, orks, that sort of thing. I imagine there are decent scoring options there as well, if my recollection of 'allies of convenience can score' is correct.

 

 

That's how you tend to end up with CSMless CSM armies, though. You have armies that take a couple MSU reserved cultist squads because honestly, as far as backfield campers go they aren't lousy for the points, and you're required to have a couple troop units anyway. But then, you're taking some sort of allies, and almost regardless of which you take you're going to end up with some more resilient, more points efficient, or more killy scoring units there, and by the time you've taken the required two squads of cultists and the allowed two allied troops slots you usually have enough scoring for a regular sized game, so it's time to move on to helldrakes and oblits (or spawn and maulers), mace princes (or biker ICs and bike squads), and whatever killy stuff your ally choice brings, and you run out of points long before you ever look back to see what other CSM troops you might bother with.

 

Now, if allying guard in particular, I guess I could see guard platoons as backfield scorers, and a couple rhino mounted plague or CSM squads as forward scorers, but because cultists are so much more points efficient at their job than CSMs are at theirs, it usually goes the other way around.

[Minsc]

I recently played a list where I had alot of unmarked CSM for the first time and the effect was alot better than what I expected it to be.

The list (1995 pts) was;

Chaos Lord /w Mark of Slaanesh, VotLW, Lightning Claw, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Sigil of Corruption, Gift of Mutation* (I got +1S on my ranged weapon, quite ironic.)

10x CSM /w 2 melta

*Rhino /w Dirge and Havoc Launcher.

10x CSM /w 2 melta

*Rhino /w Dirge and Havoc Launcher.

10x CSM /w 2 plasma

*Rhino /w Dirge and Havoc Launcher.

5x Noise Marines /w Doom Siren, 2x extra ccw.

*Rhino /w Dirge and Havoc Launcher.

5x Noise Marines /w Blastmaster.

5x Noise Marines /w Blastmaster.

Heldrake /w Hades Autocannon

10x Havocs /w 4x Autocannons

10x Havocs /w 4x Missile Launchers

10x havocs /w 4x Lascannons.

My Eldar opponent was tabled in turn 5, and quite frankly there wasn't much he could do. I just had too many bodies and even regular bolters in that amount will kill stuff.

The Havoc Launchers surprised me as well. Moving 6" allows the passengers to shoot their 2x meltas / 2x plasmas / 2 AP3 templates, while the Rhinos put down 1 S5 blast each (and a snap-firing twin-linked bolter. )

The Heldrake has the Hades Cannon since I need some form of anti-air in the list. Plus I already have one torrent AP3 flamer in the list.

I think it would be quite hilarious to swap the weapons on the havocs to specialweapons (melta and plasma to be precise) and find a way to put them in Rhinos as well. 60 angry marines driving towards you, toting specialweapons while afew blastmasters give ranged support would be a awesome sight.

I'll try this list vs Tyranids soon. I'd expect it to fare quite well.

[the jeske]

But if you get stuned you have to snap fire with the dudes inside and the havock being template can't shot at all.

How did the eldar army look like ?

[Minsc]

But if you get stuned you have to snap fire with the dudes inside and the havock being template can't shot at all.

How did the eldar army look like ?

 

Hmm.

 

Not über-competetive, but still not weak, being Eldar and all;

*Baharroth

*Avatar

*10x Dire Avengers /w exarch + Waveserpent.

*10x Dire Avengers /w exarch + Waveserpent.

*10 Striking Scorpions /w exarch, claw.

*6-8 Fire Dragons /w exarch + Waveserpent.

*10 Warpspiders /w exarch

*10 Swooping Hawks /w exarch

*1 crimson hunter (exarch) 

 

He had powers/wargear on all the exarch, but I can't really remember what.

 

The same list (and player) crushed my World Eater-list one week ago.

[the jeske]

Thank you for posting the list.