Loyalist or traitor?

[recon0321]

What makes any HH army loyalist or traitor?

 

Is it just certain units? Or how is that decided

[FunkyMonkey]

It's all up to you.  You write the story of each company/battalion/etc.  Of course, their are certain formations more likely to be used in traitor armies, such as the Kakophoni, Justaerin, Death Shroud, and Red Butchers/Rampagers.  Out of those though, only the Kakophoni are the ones that I would say hands down are traitor, because they are among the first Astartes units to be exhibiting the taint of Chaos (Word Bearers don't count).

[recon0321]

Are the grave wardens a traitor formation?

[Conn Eremon]

Grave Wardens are a Death Guard formation. It is up to you on whether or not they are traitors like the rest of the Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

 

It's all up to you. You write the story of each company/battalion/etc. Of course, their are certain formations more likely to be used in traitor armies, such as the Kakophoni, Justaerin, Death Shroud, and Red Butchers/Rampagers. Out of those though, only the Kakophoni are the ones that I would say hands down are traitor, because they are among the first Astartes units to be exhibiting the taint of Chaos (Word Bearers don't count).

Well, technically the Gal Vorbak were the first to be tainted, they just weren't as obvious until the Massacre, although that was the same battle Kakaphoni debuted. But yeah, as long as you avoid the units whose fluff basically slaps them onto the Traitors side, the "loyalty" is up to you.

[recon0321]

I guess I read a little too much into the little snippet about taking certain characters but I guess that just pertains to playing the campaign....

[Conn Eremon]

Aye. If you take certain named characters and are playing the "story line" battles, then it become cut and dried.

 

Unless you are playing an alternate universe version of something, then :cuss the rules.

[Memento Of Prospero]

"Why choose when you can be both?"

-Alpharius, or possibly Omegon. Probably both.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Grave Wardens are a Death Guard formation. It is up to you on whether or not they are traitors like the rest of the Legion.

Agreed, but they are exclusive to Typhon's First Company. So one might surmise that he had purged any loyalists from their ranks long before Isstvan III.

[hisdudeness]

Why even choose? You can always just place your army during the Crusade when everyone was getting along (more or less).

[infyrana]

 

Grave Wardens are a Death Guard formation. It is up to you on whether or not they are traitors like the rest of the Legion.

Agreed, but they are exclusive to Typhon's First Company. So one might surmise that he had purged any loyalists from their ranks long before Isstvan III.

 

I'm sure you have, but if you read the GW entry again, it does say "Originally... informal name..." etc etc, or basically what I mean is that it implies a future where the name is used for other Death Guard specific terminators who use Alchemical weaponry, and not just those 'originally' found within Typhon's company.  As the rules also don't state in a little box that they are Loyalist or Traitor only, one can assume that even when fielding Typhon or during storyline battles they are not specific to traitors.

 

But I will concede that it is more likely they would come from Typhon's company for the majority.

 

For the OP, there are little boxes for specific units/characters that state if you are playing a Narrative Campaign following the HH history, those specific ones can only be used on Loyalist or Traitor.  But otherwise, most people playing standard games, it's your own history and desire for their side you choose.

[Karthak]

 

Grave Wardens are a Death Guard formation. It is up to you on whether or not they are traitors like the rest of the Legion.

Agreed, but they are exclusive to Typhon's First Company. So one might surmise that he had purged any loyalists from their ranks long before Isstvan III.

Doesn't the possibility exist that a couple of them could have been on detached duty with another Death Guard force, one that had been out of contact for a while, like the White Scars were during the Chondax campaign? Said force could then have finished up the campaign, only to receive a terrible surprise when they made contact with the Imperium again.

 

"Ca...Captain, this is insane. According to the astropaths, Lord Mortarion has rebelled against the Emperor!"

"WHAT!?"

The com officer's face whitened even further as the astropaths continued their report.

"Captain, there's more. Lord Mortarion...He murdered a quarter of the Legion in the Isstvan system."

 

Given how the Legions tended to be spread out over huge distances, one could come up with similar scenarios for every traitor Legion except the Word Bearers (who killed their own loyalists over the course of half a century). A few years spent out of contact, only to come up for air and discover that the galaxy has gone mad.

[Hyaenidae]

 

 

 

one could come up with similar scenarios for every traitor Legion except the Word Bearers (who killed their own loyalists over the course of half a century).

 

Loyal to the Emperor? Maybe.

 

Loyal to Chaos? Never. ;)

[Kol Saresk]

one could come up with similar scenarios for every traitor Legion except the Word Bearers (who killed their own loyalists over the course of half a century).

Loyal to the Emperor? Maybe.

Loyal to Chaos? Never.

Narek of the Word, prime example. And actually, if someone as insane as him(I'm going to kill a Primarch!) can make it through the purge, who knows what other kind of loonies could make it through. And actually, the Word Bearers also look like one of two perfect Legions to start making Traitor vs Traitor scenarios. Just imagine the powers struggles to earn the patronage of Lorgar, Erebus or Kor Phaeron.

[Sgt.Sangha]

yeah whats the deal with Narek of the word exactly?

[Conn Eremon]

He follows the Word of Lorgar, faithfully, devotedly, zealously. No matter the consequences, or the challenges that face him, he adamantly refuses to stray from his path.

 

Any who hear the Word of Lorgar and spurn it, twist it or corrupt it will meet death at Narek's hands.

 

Even if it is Lorgar himself.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes and no. When we first see him in Vulkan Lives, he still believes in the Emperor, but still follows Lorgar, he just doesn't agree with the corruption of the Legion. I guess you could see that his attitude towards Chaos is much in line with the Night Lords: It is power to be bargained with, not enslaved to. But then when we get to UE, he's pretty much "I am Lectitio Divinatus! Curse all who stand before me for I am the Righteous Wrath that shall smite the Fallen Son! But I refuse to stand with the Loyalists!"(exaggerated and paraphrased) But they are two very different showings of Narek. Sort of like the collective idea was "I'm going to make a rogue Word Bearer" and then Nick Kyme and Dan Abnett set about making two similar and yet strikingly different rogue Word Bearers.

[SW1]

I'm having issues trying to decide what I want to paint up.  I'm thinking lots of IH's with a few extras from each of the Legions present when to smelly stuff hits the fan.  Might make up a mixed 20 man bolter squad consolidated from loyalist traitors.  Gives me a chance to add a bit of colour to a rather dark grumpy looking army.  

[recon0321]

Hmmm so I got plenty of latitude to work with...

[Adra'Melek]

I think FW have deliberately kept it so the flexibility is there. I was originally planning n doing a loyalist World Eater army. Part of the 40000 WE not at Isstvan. Not all had the nails and most that did turned on the rest when the word came of the heresy. The few guys with nails formed the rampager squads, lead by chaplains who execute them if they completely lose it.

 

 

 

But white armour drove me crazy :)

[SW1]

Think rule of cool is in your favour here.  I'd probably limit the loyalist traitors to standard units rather than trying to cherry pick the best out of each army list.  Then you can just use them as what they are (hence me doing a 20 man bolter squad).  It saves having arguments on mixing and matching Legions for possible advantage.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

 

 

 

Grave Wardens are a Death Guard formation. It is up to you on whether or not they are traitors like the rest of the Legion.

 

Agreed, but they are exclusive to Typhon's First Company. So one might surmise that he had purged any loyalists from their ranks long before Isstvan III.

 

I'm sure you have, but if you read the GW entry again, it does say "Originally... informal name..." etc etc, or basically what I mean is that it implies a future where the name is used for other Death Guard specific terminators who use Alchemical weaponry, and not just those 'originally' found within Typhon's company.  As the rules also don't state in a little box that they are Loyalist or Traitor only, one can assume that even when fielding Typhon or during storyline battles they are not specific to traitors.

 

But I will concede that it is more likely they would come from Typhon's company for the majority.

 

For the OP, there are little boxes for specific units/characters that state if you are playing a Narrative Campaign following the HH history, those specific ones can only be used on Loyalist or Traitor.  But otherwise, most people playing standard games, it's your own history and desire for their side you choose.

You're right, I hadn't noticed FW had retconned use of the name Grave Warden. How tiresome.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

 

Grave Wardens are a Death Guard formation. It is up to you on whether or not they are traitors like the rest of the Legion.

 

Agreed, but they are exclusive to Typhon's First Company. So one might surmise that he had purged any loyalists from their ranks long before Isstvan III.

I'm sure you have, but if you read the GW entry again, it does say "Originally... informal name..." etc etc, or basically what I mean is that it implies a future where the name is used for other Death Guard specific terminators who use Alchemical weaponry, and not just those 'originally' found within Typhon's company. As the rules also don't state in a little box that they are Loyalist or Traitor only, one can assume that even when fielding Typhon or during storyline battles they are not specific to traitors.

 

But I will concede that it is more likely they would come from Typhon's company for the majority.

 

For the OP, there are little boxes for specific units/characters that state if you are playing a Narrative Campaign following the HH history, those specific ones can only be used on Loyalist or Traitor. But otherwise, most people playing standard games, it's your own history and desire for their side you choose.

You're right, I hadn't noticed FW had retconned use of the name Grave Warden. How tiresome.

not really a retcon though. If you think about it, since Lord of the Night, it has been basically set in stone that people will take a name that carries its own power and take it for themselves. For example the Raptor Cults/Night Raptors. They all borrow the name of Zso Sahaal's command company. The Gal Vorbak. There are only forty or so. But by the time we reach Calth, a couple thousand wear the name.

 

Why would the title of Grave Warden be exempt from this?

[Daemon2027]

There is also room in the HH for a force to be neither loyalist or traitor. With the 'traitor' legions I would imagine there are a lot of marines, who rebel with their primarchs for all the lofty ideals such as overthrowing a tyrant, but then become disillusioned as the taint of chaos creeps in. They can't, and probably don't want to, return to the Imperium, so follow their own remit. It's easier to imagine with certain legions such as the Night Lords, who fracture after the battles with the Dark Angles, and have that in their nature anyway, and the Alpha Legion who are, to partially quote Scars 'unpredictable'. But even in the other legions it would not be hard to imagine those who follow their own path. Even in the Word Bearers we see Narek who is disillusioned with the path Lorgar treads.

 

With the Loyalists, Massacre tells us how the Iron Hands fracture with some turning there back on the imperium, but I can see groups of the shattered legions going to extreme lengths in order to achieve the vengeance they desire, or become broken by the massacre and turn on both the Imperium and the Warmaster (albeit the Salamanders are fairly well balanced but whose to say their former legacy can not resurface under extreme stress). Also when reading Scars, I was thinking a group of Terran White Scars going a bit rogue, for the frill of the hunt and all that.

 

To use the old hobby saying 'it's your army, do what you want''.

[Wade Garrett]

He follows the Word of Lorgar, faithfully, devotedly, zealously. No matter the consequences, or the challenges that face him, he adamantly refuses to stray from his path.

 

Any who hear the Word of Lorgar and spurn it, twist it or corrupt it will meet death at Narek's hands.

 

Even if it is Lorgar himself.

If you meet your father on the road, kill your father. If you meet the Urizen on the road, kill the Urizen.

 

Honestly, considering Horus had to send half his Mournival to die on Isstvan 3, I don't see why Typhon having to take the a more direct approach in weeding the conservative elements out of the Grave Wardens is a deal breaker.