xedoc Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Just finished reading Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe; it's the first book about W40K that I read and I must say its a very indulging read. Anyway, just had the thought that what if Chapter Commmander Astelan was right? Had Lion El'Johnson, first of his name, Primarch of the First Legion really betrayed the Emperor; if not in action at least in motive? Is all this suspicion and hatred for the Fallen simply to cover or destroy any evidence that the Primarch was a traitor - no matter how brief the moment? Perhaps to utter an utmost heretical jab, are the Dark Angels the REAL FALLEN? (I'm pretty sure I'm not the first one to speak or even think of it) Oh yeah, are there any books out there that would continue with the Angels of Darkness novel? I'm very much interested in what happened after. Did they receive Brother Chaplain Boreas' message? What did they do about it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniard Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Read Ravenwing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 AoD is the only book where the if the reader listens to a demented traitor he gets impression Lion betrayed the Emperor. Any HH book will refute that. Welcome to the Rock... where we get that question once per month. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Hhaha, was just going to say what Lucifer said, read Descent of Angels/Fallen Angels next. Unremembered Empire also has a little insight into Dark Angels behavior. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xedoc Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 haha thanks for the recommendations. I still feel sorry for Astelan though; plus the point brought up by Boreas' was also telling of the inner struggles of a Dark Angel particularly those in the Deathwing. If they are solely defined by the Fallen whom they hunt, what purpose would they have after all have been cleansed? Other Space Marine Chapters seek to fulfill the Emperor's Will, but Dark Angels (Inner Circle to be more precise) put the hunt for the fallen above all else. Would the Emperor approve or be disappointed by this kind of fervor? Anyway, off to find and read those books!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roma Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Damn I was hoping all my dreams were coming true when I saw this thread. I'll get the dirt on you lot some day, that ship didn't just disappear on crusade and we all know it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Damn I was hoping all my dreams were coming true when I saw this thread. I'll get the dirt on you lot some day, that ship didn't just disappear on crusade and we all know it! ...uh..... um.. we sent that ship to a farm in the country where it could play with other ships and have a good life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Roma, the Templar ship in question was transporting an Alpha Legionaire disguised as a Noble Dark Angel. When we informed them of their mistake, they REQUESTED us to stand by to destroy the ship, should they fail to stop the traitor. They died as Heroes. ***Ravenwing Interception and Cleanse team requested. Priority Alpha. Track and observe Roma. Stand by for STANDARD RESPONSE.*** :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CovertToaster Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Just finished reading Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe; it's the first book about W40K that I read and I must say its a very indulging read. Anyway, just had the thought that what if Chapter Commmander Astelan was right? Had Lion El'Johnson, first of his name, Primarch of the First Legion really betrayed the Emperor; if not in action at least in motive? Is all this suspicion and hatred for the Fallen simply to cover or destroy any evidence that the Primarch was a traitor - no matter how brief the moment? Perhaps to utter an utmost heretical jab, are the Dark Angels the REAL FALLEN? (I'm pretty sure I'm not the first one to speak or even think of it) Oh yeah, are there any books out there that would continue with the Angels of Darkness novel? I'm very much interested in what happened after. Did they receive Brother Chaplain Boreas' message? What did they do about it? You should read Fallen Angels.......it's located in the Rock librarium........which is housed in cell 42......for the moment.......Interrogator Chaplin Lucifer knows the way......... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 To the OP - Ravenwing is a direct sequel to Angels of Darkness. A further book in the sequence is coming out in August this year I believe, called Master of Sanctity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roma Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Roma, the Templar ship in question was transporting an Alpha Legionaire disguised as a Noble Dark Angel. When we informed them of their mistake, they REQUESTED us to stand by to destroy the ship, should they fail to stop the traitor. They died as Heroes. ***Ravenwing Interception and Cleanse team requested. Priority Alpha. Track and observe Roma. Stand by for STANDARD RESPONSE.*** :) You have 5 seconds to show me that in official writing or die trying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I had my triplicate copy here somewhere but I swear the Reclusiarch came and took again. These guys are like the ultimate writing censors. Besides we know what really happened with the Templar ship. Their GPS broke and the SAT Nav failed and we all know Templars never stop and ask for directions. Their lost somewhere between Kent and West Palm Beach Florida. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Anyway, just had the thought that what if Chapter Commmander Astelan was right? He wasn't. He notes a lack of Dark Angels stories during the siege of Terra and concludes "zomg, Jonson is teh tratiorz". I guess that would make Guilliman and Russ traitors too. Incidentally, the Dark Angels were known to have travelled with the Space Wolves back to Terra, and on at least one occasion it was the Space Wolves who insisted to halt and fight the traitors on a world they passed. Jonson would then later accuse Russ of delaying them and causing them to be too late, and the two would have a duel over it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3595570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 If they are solely defined by the Fallen whom they hunt, what purpose would they have after all have been cleansed? Other Space Marine Chapters seek to fulfill the Emperor's Will, but Dark Angels (Inner Circle to be more precise) put the hunt for the fallen above all else. Would the Emperor approve or be disappointed by this kind of fervor? You may recall that the Emperor sent the Space Wolves to annihilate the Thousand Sons because their Primarch disobeyed him (even if it was for what Magnus thought it was a good reason). The Emperor very much approves of full-on traitors being hunted down. As to asking what the Dark Angels would do if the Fallen were no more, what a silly question. The Dark Angels don't just hunt the Fallen. They only actively do that when they have a clue about the Fallen, which they don't get very often (one decent clue per decade is about the norm, if even that). In the meantime, they do what every other Space Marine Chapter does- kill stuff that threatens humanity, which is what they will continue to do in the event that are no more Fallen to contend with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3596003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Don't forget how we prefer to be enemies with Chaos! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3596032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xedoc Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 hahahaha the posts are getting funnier... I couldnt find the Ravenwing book; but was able to buy/finish the Fallen Angels (most of the reviews on Descent of Angels pointed it being focused on the kid librarian) The Lion was an opportunist as well. His exchange with Perturabo at the end was quite revealing to say the least. Like the Eldest Son jealous for being passed over and wanting to kick the younger brother's ass hahahaha. What better opportunity than to defeat Horus and take his *rightful* place as Warmaster. Still I'm wondering why the library in Caliban wasnt destroyed if its tainted or contains anything about Chaos. Could have been orders from the Emperor? or The Lion saw some use of them? or just Luther stirring things up? I better consult the Chaplains and free myself of these doubts. (Probably not Chaplain Asmodai, he'll probably throw me in the lower cells) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3597079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The grimoires of forbidden knowledge (it sounds more grimdark than "library") were taken from the Knights of Lupus before the Emperor reached Caliban. The Lion, or Luther, or both may have been involved in the decision to preserve them. Now I think about it, what motive would they have for destroying such a repository of knowledge? The beasts themselves had to be eradicated to make Caliban safer for the human population but the books would not appear to be a threat. Understanding the cause or nature of the beasts could have been critical in preventing them rising again. Keeping the information tightly locked up just in case is the kind of pragmatic and secretive act typical of the Lion. To answer the topic's titular question: No. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3597107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xedoc Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 Yeah true enough, those things make perfect sense and fits with Jonson's personality. The grimoires though were already found by the time the Emperor arrived in Caliban. Its possible he didnt know about it or I would imagine he'd want it destroyed. I hope to get a copy of Ravenwing and Master of Sanctity soon; very interested in where its going. Plus I hope there's a chapter or two in those books detailing the fight between Belial and Cypher. I read in some wiki entry that Belial *almost* had Cypher... but his bolter jammed and he missed his sword swing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286884-did-the-lion-truly-betrayed-the-emperor/#findComment-3597148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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