Retcons: Who, how, why?

[Ratboy1664]

I have been thinking about this for a while and so I ask the following questions:

 

1) Who comes up with the idea for retcons?

2) Who green lights them? Is it GW, FW or BL? Do fans get a say?

3) Is anything sacrosanct?

[Demus Ragnok]

1 Probably the design team.

 

2 All three of those are one and the same group of people. They all work together. Fans have no say.

 

3 Not likely.

[Kol Saresk]

1.) The IP Department.

 

2.) The IP Department.

 

3.) Not since the days of Rogue Trader when the Ultramarines were a Third Founding Chapter of Traitor gene-seed.

[Veteran Sergeant]

1. Anybody let near a keyboard at the GW offices.

 

2. Nobody cares, and nobody is paying attention. Fans will buy the stuff regardless, so their say is irrelevant.

 

3. The only sacrosanct piece of fluff is Rick Priestley's Origins of the Legiones Astartes. That's why I always chuckle during the female space marine discussions. Not because I care one way or another, but because it's literally one of the only pieces of fluff that has survived since Rogue Trader.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Is anything sacrosanct? Sure. The relentless hounding and mass lawsuit of anything moving by GW's legal department.

 

THAT will never change.

[Lexington]

1) Probably lots of people, in different circumstances. Some are, I imagine, inserted for marketing reasons (like the painfully awkward 'clarification' to the Black Templars' views on psykers) by higher in the company. Some, like the revamp to the Necron background, are done by the design team because they feel the old stuff wasn't working for whatever reason. The most common form of retcon is probably unintentional, some missed detail or minor contradiction that wasn't caught by an author and isn't rectified because if GW's standing 'loose canon' philosophy of world building.

 

2) From the sound of it, Alan Merritt, GW's head of IP, makes the final decision. I doubt he actually gives an editorial pass to every novel and article that gets published, tho.

 

3) Easiest answer here is 'the big stuff.' The Emperor is going to be on his Throne until The sun goes out. Ultramarines will always reside on Macragge. The Eldar are dying forever. Khorne's always going to have a sanguinary infatuation. Etc. It's the bits between that are malleable. 'Till someone says different, of course.

 

2. Nobody cares, and nobody is paying attention.

I don't think this is even a little true - there's clearly a lot of care put into the universe. It's just that 40K is inconsistent, and consciously so. It gives the background the latitude to move forward, to shed bad bits and organically grow new ones. I'm pretty critical of the direction of the background lately (or at least the weapons-grade dumbassery they pack into modern Codexes), but having that room to change and redefine the details of the universe is crucial to 40K's ability to remain fresh and interesting. Stripped of that, it'd drop into the same shiftless hell that Star Trek made for itself.

[Kol Saresk]

Star Trek actually has a few canon issues itself too though so it has shifted throughout its existence. Nevermind the fact that if it never hit the screen, then it has no more canonicity than fanfiction.

[Unintentional Batman]

 

3.) Not since the days of Rogue Trader when the Ultramarines were a Third Founding Chapter of Traitor gene-seed. 

 

 

 

This, this, so much this. :)

[Don the Oiler]

1) Tzeentch, and in effect every GW employee as followers of him.

 

In fact i think the constant retcons are sort of a trademark of the Warhammer franchise. The comparison with Star Trek isn't really fair, as Star Trek is primarily about telling stories, while GW is in essence a toy factory.

They're dependant on you buying new toys constantly, so new stuff has to be come up with all the time, though this is seriously at odds with the supposed stagnancy of Imperial technology.

"Remember those Centurion suits we have had lying around for years? I think it's time we use them." "Centu-what? I don't know what you're talking about!" "Centurion suits, you know those huge hulking suits we got but never used. They're in the same storage room as the Stormravens and Storm Talons." "Those sound incredibly helpful, why didn't we use them before? And that Space Wolf over there is desperately looking for his Leman Russ tank, any idea where they parked it?"

 

It might be more appropriate to compare it to other toymakers then. Have a look at the old Transformers, sometimes they'd fly, other times they couldn't even reach a higher ledge. Later they let them die by the dozen in the movie to make way for a whole new range of toys, just to revive them again later because the fans were pissed.

I think W0K gets off lightly in comparison.

[Ratboy1664]

I would be interested to see what peoples favourite and most hated retcon of the Heresy has been so far. For me I hate the introduction of the Alpha Legion into the Raven Guard story as it robs Corax of a lot of his personal tragedy. On the other hand I really like that the black rage and red thirst are now genetic flaws for the Blood Angels and that Sanguinius is trying to keep it under wraps for fear of being erased like the 2nd and 11th legions.

[Aegnor]

Most disliked would either be:

- the Raven Guard/Corax manipulation by the Alpha Legion, rather than it being their own fault, or

- the handling of the genesis of the Luther/Lion split in Descent of Angels (which might be a poor fleshing out rather than a retcon, and has largely been re-retconned I think).

 

Best retcon so far:

Imperium Secundus - something genuinely new and cool.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, the background has been hinting at the Red Thirst and Black Rage being genetic flaws for a while. However it has been hinting that they are caused by the intake of a Primarch's blood.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I would be interested to see what peoples favourite and most hated retcon of the Heresy has been so far.

Favorite? I don't really know if there are any retcons I can think of off the top of my head that I like. There are a lot I'm relatively indifferent to. I guess it depends on what we call a "retcon" versus what's just being fleshed out more.

 

Most hated? Everything about the Alpha Legion.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

 

I would be interested to see what peoples favourite and most hated retcon of the Heresy has been so far.

Favorite? I don't really know if there are any retcons I can think of off the top of my head that I like. There are a lot I'm relatively indifferent to. I guess it depends on what we call a "retcon" versus what's just being fleshed out more.

 

Most hated? Everything about the Alpha Legion.

Before I get killed by an operative, I am pretty sure all retcons are Alpha Legion disinformation.

[Aegnor]

That's just what an Alpha Legion operative would want us to think!

 

I thought the original reinvention of the Alphas in Legion was brilliant. Having set them up in that role, I haven't had too much issue with some of their appearances since. But they have been abused a bit as a pretty lazy "twist" a few times since as well.

[Memento Of Prospero]

That's just what an Alpha Legion operative would want us to think!

 

I thought the original reinvention of the Alphas in Legion was brilliant. Having set them up in that role, I haven't had too much issue with some of their appearances since. But they have been abused a bit as a pretty lazy "twist" a few times since as well.

** slowly unwinds the garote string, while somehow wearing one of those sicilian hats over his helmet**

[Unintentional Batman]

 

I don't really know if there are any retcons I can think of off the top of my head that I like.

 

Not even the one that made Ultramarines a first founding chapter/legion?

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

I don't really know if there are any retcons I can think of off the top of my head that I like.

Not even the one that made Ultramarines a first founding chapter/legion?

Honestly, I love the Ultramarines. Granted, I love all Legions, but in the inevitable hierarchy of most loved, Ultramarines rank high.

 

But there was something awesome about their original fluff. They didn't just shift the Ultramarines away from it, they left a gaping hole where they used to be that has never been filled. I understand the mysteriousness of the 13th and 21st Foundings give hints at others like it, but we have no Imperial hero granted the right to forge a new force out of the genetic origins of a traitorous force. It always seemed like the ultimate :cuss you to the traitors. You weren't just erased. You were overwritten.

[Wade Garrett]

Minotaurs? (World Eaters!)

 

Carcharadons? (Night Lords!)

 

Red Scorpions? (Word Bearers!)

 

Sons of Anateus? (Death Guard!)

 

Blood Ravens? (Thousand Sons, so sayeth G.S. Goto)

[Kol Saresk]

 

Carcharadons? (Night Lords!)

That makes sense.

[Legatus]

 

I would be interested to see what peoples favourite and most hated retcon of the Heresy has been so far.

 

Making Ultramar 500 worlds instead of eight (originally nine). Just so pointless. Yet insulting at the same time. ("Emprie building, yay!")

[Jareddm]

Minotaurs? (World Eaters!)

Carcharadons? (Night Lords!)

Red Scorpions? (Word Bearers!)

Sons of Anateus? (Death Guard!)

Blood Ravens? (Thousand Sons, so sayeth G.S. Goto)

None of those, with the exception of the Blood Ravens, have even the slightest bit of evidence beyond "They share tactics."

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Minotaurs? (World Eaters!)

Carcharadons? (Night Lords!)

Red Scorpions? (Word Bearers!)

Sons of Anateus? (Death Guard!)

Blood Ravens? (Thousand Sons, so sayeth G.S. Goto)

None of those, with the exception of the Blood Ravens, have even the slightest bit of evidence beyond "They share tactics."

 

 

That was the point.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I don't think they often set out to deliberately retcon stuff. It's just their "loose canon" approach at work. A lot of it has been fleshing out rather than direct retcon - the Alpha Legion stuff in Legion was actually giving a really distinctive character to otherwise bland generic chaos marines and has been well utilised in The Serpent Beneath.

Things like new units generally work. For example, for most of 40k history the 1st company were just veterans, basically Tac squads with an extra attack. It's only recently Sternguard and Vanguard vets were invented but they feel like they fit and so very quickly you just accept them as part of the fabric of the setting.

 

When I try to think of a retcon I like I just keep deciding that they were actually just fleshing out. The two retcons I really dislike are inserting the Alpha Legion into the Raven Guard backstory as others have said - it robs them of some of their tragedy - and increasing the legions from 10,000 to 100,000. It makes some things seem absurd (the Death Guard have just seven companies?) and because of numbers stated previously some Legions are virtually irrelevent - Emperor's Children and Salamanders I think.

[Kol Saresk]

True, but those seven companies are divided into numerous battalions, batteries and divisions. The Company is just a "regiment". After all, there is at least 1.5 million Astartes around the time of the Heresy, but only eighteen Legions?

 

A further evidence of "fleshing out" would be the Night Lords fluff. For example, stating they had been at Istvaan V and Terra were met with cries that "The Night Lords IA article never said they were there!" And Nostramo being destroyed twenty years before was met with the same thing, with the add in of "it had to happen sooner or the Night Lords surely would have been punished!". And yet, their IA article has them destroying hundreds of worlds between Nostramo and the Heresy. Quite a bit of ground to cover in less than a year. Not only that, but they cover so much ground that the Imperium has to send recon fleets after them. As for Istvaan and Terra, the IA says that they made their loyalty well known when the Heresy erupted in full. What better way than the Massacre? It also says that they were headed to Terra, for the siege. True, nothing says they were there before A D-B's Night Lords trilogy, but more importantly, nothing says they weren't.