Retcons: Who, how, why?

[Inquisitor Kravin]

"True, but those seven companies are divided into numerous battalions, batteries and divisions."

They are now and if you read books like Know No Fear and Mark of Calth it's clear that the Ultramarines have layers and layers of hierarchy with Chapter Masters Captains etc. but Flight of the Eisenstein was written before the retcon. Battle-Captain Garro's command went from a thousand marines to ten thousand and yet still he seems to liaise directly with squad Sergeants with no intervening chain of command and when Garro and Grulgor are stationed together on a frigate, despite each being commander of over ten thousand men and effectively a theatre level strategic commander, nobody thinks it odd.

I realise that the Great Crusade lasted two centuries and you can apply the usual loose canon fudge of saying the Legions were 10k strong in the early years and 100k strong in the later years but still, the Emperor's Children at just a few hundred strong, the point in A Thousand Sons when Ahriman recalls the marvel of seeing a thousand marines in one place when all nine companies of the Legion fought together in a battle, Salamanders have been described as always being the smallest Legion, Space Wolves haven't got numbers but given that their main action in the Heresy era was against the small Thousand Sons legion and they only had one successor chapter I've always thought that they must have been small in number. Of course it could just be that the casualties on Prospero were that horrendous but even with 2 million SpireGuard and a much higher proportion of sorcerors than other Legions I feel that Prospero would have been one-sided if the Space Wolves were anywhere near the 100k mark.

 

[Legatus]

Things that are definitely retcons:

 

- 100,000 per Legion instead of 10,000

 

- 500 worlds of Ultramar instead of 8

 

- Calth is attacked at the start of the Heresy instead of at the end (and all of the subsequent involvement of the Ultramarines in the heresy) 

 

- the account of the battle for Calth (Word Bearers winning, Ultramarines doing nothing besides taking the defense grid)

 

- "Chapter" formation consisted of up to 10,000 warriors, instead of 1,000

 

- The "Imperial Truth" plot, and the Emperor's Webway agenda

 

- The character and motivation of the Alpha Legion (secret agents instead of highly competitive warriors)

 

- Rogal Dorn being given overall command of the Imperial forces

 

- Sigismund being First Captain of the Legion instead of a mere Battlebrother with outstanding fighting skill

 

- The Space Wolves terrify Imperial soldiers, instead of being people's heroes (but maybe they are meant to go through a drastic personality change after the Heresy...?)

 

- The Raven Guard tinkered with Emperor-given tech, instead of independently experimenting with cloning

[Kol Saresk]

So did Loken, and his Company was large enough that by itself it was able to take an entire mountain range. I imagine Garro would have to have a command squad, would he not? One can easily put it that what we saw, was the command squad. Similar to how everytime we saw Loken, he ws with Nero Vipus and his squad. Except for when he ran into Jubal-Samus.

 

But yes, the numbers are being retconned. Actually, even the numbers in the earlier books are being retconned. Turns out the hardback editions aren't just hardback with fancy-schmancy artwork: they're revised.

 

@Legatus: Umm, since when was Calth attacked at the end of the Heresy? Was this before the IA articles? I ask because the Word Bearers IA articles says Calth was attacked while the Word Bearers were the Word Bearers were headed towards Terra and since it took seven years for Horus to get from Istvaan to Terra, it would that, logically, it would take the same, or a similar amount of time for the XVII to do the same.

[Demus Ragnok]

As far as Grulgor and Garro being stationed on the same ship. Wasn't Grulgor there to "deal with" Garro if need be. I remembering having that impression when i read FotE.

[Kol Saresk]

As far as Grulgor and Garro being stationed on the same ship. Wasn't Grulgor there to "deal with" Garro if need be. I remembering having that impression when i read FotE.

Yep. That was exactly it. Garro was an unknown so they wanted him somewhere that he wouldn't be in the way if he had to be put down, but at the same time close enough that they could watch his reaction to the Betrayal.

[Unintentional Batman]

Things that are definitely retcons:

 

And you, oh so conviniently, left our all the major (much more major than anything on your list) retcons from the Rogue Trader days. :(

[Legatus]

@Legatus: Umm, since when was Calth attacked at the end of the Heresy? Was this before the IA articles? I ask because the Word Bearers IA articles says Calth was attacked while the Word Bearers were the Word Bearers were headed towards Terra and since it took seven years for Horus to get from Istvaan to Terra, it would that, logically, it would take the same, or a similar amount of time for the XVII to do the same.

According to the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Ultramarines only learned of the treachery when Terra was already under attack.

The Word Bearers Index Astartes stated that "while Kor Phaeron set his men upon Calth, Lorgar was leading the rest of his Legion against Terra." I took that to mean that the rest of the Word bearers Legion was literally attacking Terra at that very moment, together with the rest of the traitor Legions (which would have been consistent with the Ultramarine lore above). Not as Lorgar "leading his Legion on a path towards terra" that took seven years.

Things that are definitely retcons:

And you, oh so conviniently, left our all the major (much more major than anything on your list) retcons from the Rogue Trader days.

This is the "Horus Heresy" sub forum, is it not?

Edit: I also left out Thunder Wolf cavalry, Sanguinary guard, Centurions, Stormravens, additional Hive Fleets, etc. Basically al those things that don't really have to do with the "Horus Heresy" series.

[Unintentional Batman]

 

According to the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Ultramarines only learned of the treachery when Terra was already under attack.

 

And according to pre-retcon sources, Ultramarines are a post-heresy chapter.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

 

 

Minotaurs? (World Eaters!)

Carcharadons? (Night Lords!)

Red Scorpions? (Word Bearers!)

Sons of Anateus? (Death Guard!)

Blood Ravens? (Thousand Sons, so sayeth G.S. Goto)

None of those, with the exception of the Blood Ravens, have even the slightest bit of evidence beyond "They share tactics."

 

That was the point.

The point I was trying to make, though, is that there is no more situations where a valued Imperial Commander is given the right, and seemingly publicized, to re-Found a Space Marine force using traitor gene-seed and legion number.

 

The examples listed don't provide that. They do provide a mysteriousness that the setting is more accommodating of, I agree on that. But it isn't the same as the original XIII.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

 

 

Minotaurs? (World Eaters!)

Carcharadons? (Night Lords!)

Red Scorpions? (Word Bearers!)

Sons of Anateus? (Death Guard!)

Blood Ravens? (Thousand Sons, so sayeth G.S. Goto)

None of those, with the exception of the Blood Ravens, have even the slightest bit of evidence beyond "They share tactics."

 

That was the point.

The point I was trying to make, though, is that there is no more situations where a valued Imperial Commander is given the right, and seemingly publicized, to re-Found a Space Marine force using traitor gene-seed and legion number.

 

The examples listed don't provide that. They do provide a mysteriousness that the setting is more accommodating of, I agree on that. But it isn't the same as the original XIII.

 

Edit: And since when are HH/GC Chapters set at 10k?

 

Additionally, the Flight of the Eisenstein was after the increase to Legion numbers. It just took a while before authors began recognizing that in their books.

[Kol Saresk]

I was referring to Wade's point...

[Unintentional Batman]

 

Basically al those things that don't really have to do with the "Horus Heresy" series.

 

Ah, so you are admitting that Ultramarines indeed don't really have to do with the "Horus Heresy" series, because they are a 3rd founding. Nice to see you be honest about the real background of the chapter :)

[Kol Saresk]

I feel this is the part where some should say "Let's take breather"

[Conn Eremon]

I was referring to Wade's point...

I know. Didn't mean to suggest that I was correcting you on my point, just clarifying my point.

[Legatus]

 

And since when are HH/GC Chapters set at 10k?

 

The 6th Edition Codex Space Marines (p. 6) and the 6th Edition Codex Dark Angels (p. 11) mention ten thousand-strong Legions, previous mentions of such numbers go back as far as the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves (p. 9).

[Veteran Sergeant]

Unintentional Batman, on 17 Feb 2014 - 08:43, said:

Quote

I don't really know if there are any retcons I can think of off the top of my head that I like.

Not even the one that made Ultramarines a first founding chapter/legion?

That's not a "Horus Heresy" retcon. That was just a product of 1st Edition 40K, which met its demise when all of the fluff changed.

Basically al those things that don't really have to do with the "Horus Heresy" series.

Ah, so you are admitting that Ultramarines indeed don't really have to do with the "Horus Heresy" series, because they are a 3rd founding. Nice to see you be honest about the real background of the chapter

I'm going to let you in on what appears to be a secret to you, lol.

We get it. It isn't funny. Time to let that joke go.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

And since when are HH/GC Chapters set at 10k?

The 6th Edition Codex Space Marines (p. 6) and the 6th Edition Codex Dark Angels (p. 11) mention ten thousand-strong Legions, previous mentions of such numbers go back as far as the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves (p. 9).

Those are Legions. I said Chapters. And I was specifically referring to what you wrote above

 

- "Chapter" formation consisted of up to 10,000 warriors, instead of 1,000

Since when? I know a lot of Legions now seem to fluctuate, not forcing set number limits for what a company or other formations are, but a chapter is still defined as a thousand, just like a company is a hundred and a battalion is five hundred. Legions like the Sons of Horus and World Bearers, and others, fluctuate those numbers, but these are deviations from the original formations, that not all Legions deviated from and from what Guilliman clearly got his inspiration.

[Legatus]

Ah, sorry, my misunderstanding.

 

In 'Know No Fear' the Ultramarines are organised into 25ish "Chapters" of 10,000. That was one of the things that stuck out.

[Conn Eremon]

I will have to reread it then, because I missed that.

 

The base, original Legion hierarchy set Chapters at a thousand though. While the Ultramarines may have revised that to accommodate their extreme high numbers, it stands to reason that Guilliman got the Chapter formations in his Codex from this basic structuring. He even technically kept Battalions, though not the officers, if you look at the split of Battle and Reserve Companies, minus the necessary additions of a Veteran and a Scout Company.

[Felix Antipodes]

Ah, sorry, my misunderstanding.

 

In 'Know No Fear' the Ultramarines are organised into 25ish "Chapters" of 10,000. That was one of the things that stuck out.

I also noted this at the time, and believe I have read it in one of the other novels as well. It jarred me out of the story straight away.

 

@Cormac

Nice bit of reasoning on why this may not be a mistake where the UMs are concerned.

[Praetor of Calth]

I think one of the major retcons in the series is going to be the amount of successor chapters that get moved to being 2nd founding rather than of one of later foundings. One, the Flesh Tearers has already been moved officially, with another heavily hinted to be moved to 2nd founding in Unremembered Empire.

[Kol Saresk]

The Scythes of the Emperor, right?

 

I thought their Founding was "Unknown".

[Unintentional Batman]

 

 Time to let that joke go.

 

What joke? You people (usually of Ultramarine persuasion) bitch, whine and moan about "retcons" when the fluff you people worship so is nothing but yet another retcon of the proper, original one. Just because you folks were probably not even born when Rogue Trader was released, doesn't give your preferred editions any excuses of being retcons you now rebel against with such vigor.

 

If I am guilty of running a joke to the ground, it's the "Vulkan is a decent human being" shtick from a few months ago. Me presenting out the double standards the "2nd to 5th" edition worshippers have is serious business. Serious business, indeed.

[Praetor of Calth]

The Scythes of the Emperor, right?

I thought their Founding was "Unknown".

For some reason I've always remembered them as being founded in M38 (The 25th Founding). However, I can't remember where I read/heard that so it is quite possible you are infact correct and I've got my facts mixed up.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but like I said as well, "I thought". We could both be wrong and it be the 13th Founding!