Retcons: Who, how, why?

[Legatus]

 

Me presenting out the double standards the "2nd to 5th" edition worshippers have is serious business.

 

If you want to stick to the "initial" Rogue Trader lore, there would be no Chaos and no Horus Heresy. Those concepts did not exist in the Rogue Trader Rulebook, since the Inquisitors are described as combatting mainly rogue psykers, as they could fall prey to "psychically attuned aliens". In that universe, the Ultramarines are from the third Founding.

 

But then technically the first "Ultra-Marines" Index Astartes is already a retcon, since it mentions the treacher legions that had been banished to the Eye of Terror. That stuff did not exist in the original Rulebook.

[Unintentional Batman]

What I want to "stick" to is completely irrelevant, but I will mention it in spirit of good faith anyway: I don't personally believe in "canon" at all - what is Cool I like. I mix stuff from all the editions in my personal view of what WH40K is. What GW or BL thinks it should be is meaningless.

 

This is about you (and your kind, but you are the posterboy of this) raging against the mere act of "retconning" something you worship from the "2nd to 5th editions" with the new fluff in a way that presents retcons universally bad and still cling to the idea that retconning the stuff from times earlier than you worship is okay. That's the double standard.

 

If you once, just once, admitted that retcons are not universally bad, as almost all the fluff you prefer is a retcon and you just dislike retcons you don't agree with, I'd drop this whole thing in a heartbeat. For good. That's all I have ever wanted. :)

 

/of course 99% of folks who gripe about the recent changes in fluff have never even heard of Rogue Trader, let alone in the know any of the details that used to be

//most of what you listed are not retcons, though

[Marshal Rohr]

What I want to "stick" to is completely irrelevant, but I will mention it in spirit of good faith anyway: I don't personally believe in "canon" at all - what is Cool I like. I mix stuff from all the editions in my personal view of what WH40K is. What GW or BL thinks it should be is meaningless.

This is about you (and your kind, but you are the posterboy of this) raging against the mere act of "retconning" something you worship from the "2nd to 5th editions" with the new fluff in a way that presents retcons universally bad and still cling to the idea that retconning the stuff from times earlier than you worship is okay. That's the double standard.

If you once, just once, admitted that retcons are not universally bad, as almost all the fluff you prefer is a retcon and you just dislike retcons you don't agree with, I'd drop this whole thing in a heartbeat. For good. That's all I have ever wanted.

/of course 99% of folks who gripe about the recent changes in fluff have never even heard of Rogue Trader, let alone in the know any of the details that used to be

//most of what you listed are not retcons, though

You need to chill out. Legs doesn't have to explain himself to anyone.

[Legatus]

I think I did explain it a while ago. What with retcons one does not notice not affecting one and what not. Plus expressing sympathy for those who had their Rogue Trader lore retconned into "modern 40K". Did not seem to satisfy ya. But then again complaining is so much more fun. (I should know.)

[Unintentional Batman]

Fair enough. I probably missed your post on this, or was too drunk to actually understand what you said. But now, it's registered and I'll drop this line of complaints :)

 

On to other, more important things! Like mocking Roboute Guilliman ;D

[Legatus]

I mentioned retcons mainly affecting those who are aware of the changes and a short shout out to the original Rogue Trader players (which I am not) in this thread. It was in reply to you, but you do not seem to have made another post after my reply, so I guess you didn't read it back then.

[Bannus]

As someone who has been affected by recent GW retcons, but also a player form Rogue Trader days, let me give my input:

 

I can easily forgive retconning from RT days simply because the 40K universe had no "provenance" at that time. The universe was brand new at that time and the authors were just starting to "flesh it out". So I can understand them changing course as new ideas begin to develop. In the RT days, a lot of the fluff was left up to the players themselves to imagine (and I sometimes miss those days) and everything was good.

 

2nd edition saw a rapid expansion of the background material - it was still new and fresh...still developing, but had developed a focus and a direction. It was during this time the writers were weeding out (retconning) material that did not fit into the grand scheme of things. Again, quite understandable.

 

3rd edition didn't see too much retconning because many of the "old guard" were still writing that material - instead, we saw a big expansion on that material. A few minor tweaks were made to the fluff, but nothing that really wrecked the material expanded upon in 2nd edition.

 

4th edition is when we started to see many of the old guard leave GW for bigger and better things. Newer, younger writers (who were not part of that development process from RT days to 3rd edition) began to exert their influence. There was now a disturbance in the Force.

 

5th edition is when we started to see a lot more retconned material. Most of the old guard were now gone and the newer, younger (and some would argue...less talented)  writers started to reshape the 40K universe in their own image - they are...after all...the new gods of 40K.

 

6th edition is where we see rapant and unnecessary changes to long-established fluff. Changes just for the sake of changes - and none of them are good. Many players have rooted themselves in the background material for decades now and have come to accept certain things to have remained true throughout this time period that have suddenly been flushed down the toilet.

 

In my opinion, they...we have a right to be upset.

 

I am at a crossroads at the moment because of the recent changes. A Chapter I have loved and played for over a decade has been significantly changed/damaged by the more recent changes made by the new staff at GW that I do not like. Overnight, everything that I loved about my Chapter is now gone - replaced with "wannabe Ultramarines" material. I have supported GW during that entire time and spent a lot of money (not to mention time, energy, etc.) that I now feel betrayed.

 

Do I think that GW has the right to retcon their material as they wish? Certainly. However, they would be wise to consider carefully any changes that they make....it could cost them in the long run.

 

For myself, I have decided to go on a "GW fast". For one entire year, I am specifically not spending one dime on GW products. I feel I should not "reward" GW for the poor handling of their product in the past couple of years, so I am sending my message in a language that they will understand...

 

...cold, hard cash.

[Memento Of Prospero]

The Iron Tenth has endured the Betrayal of Isstvan brother, what's one more?

 

Nurture that hatred and channel it into cold fury ;)

[Hyrion]

As someone who has been affected by recent GW retcons, but also a player form Rogue Trader days, let me give my input:

 

I can easily forgive retconning from RT days simply because the 40K universe had no "provenance" at that time. The universe was brand new at that time and the authors were just starting to "flesh it out". So I can understand them changing course as new ideas begin to develop. In the RT days, a lot of the fluff was left up to the players themselves to imagine (and I sometimes miss those days) and everything was good.

 

2nd edition saw a rapid expansion of the background material - it was still new and fresh...still developing, but had developed a focus and a direction. It was during this time the writers were weeding out (retconning) material that did not fit into the grand scheme of things. Again, quite understandable.

 

3rd edition didn't see too much retconning because many of the "old guard" were still writing that material - instead, we saw a big expansion on that material. A few minor tweaks were made to the fluff, but nothing that really wrecked the material expanded upon in 2nd edition.

 

4th edition is when we started to see many of the old guard leave GW for bigger and better things. Newer, younger writers (who were not part of that development process from RT days to 3rd edition) began to exert their influence. There was now a disturbance in the Force.

 

5th edition is when we started to see a lot more retconned material. Most of the old guard were now gone and the newer, younger (and some would argue...less talented)  writers started to reshape the 40K universe in their own image - they are...after all...the new gods of 40K.

 

6th edition is where we see rapant and unnecessary changes to long-established fluff. Changes just for the sake of changes - and none of them are good. Many players have rooted themselves in the background material for decades now and have come to accept certain things to have remained true throughout this time period that have suddenly been flushed down the toilet.

 

In my opinion, they...we have a right to be upset.

 

I am at a crossroads at the moment because of the recent changes. A Chapter I have loved and played for over a decade has been significantly changed/damaged by the more recent changes made by the new staff at GW that I do not like. Overnight, everything that I loved about my Chapter is now gone - replaced with "wannabe Ultramarines" material. I have supported GW during that entire time and spent a lot of money (not to mention time, energy, etc.) that I now feel betrayed.

 

Do I think that GW has the right to retcon their material as they wish? Certainly. However, they would be wise to consider carefully any changes that they make....it could cost them in the long run.

 

For myself, I have decided to go on a "GW fast". For one entire year, I am specifically not spending one dime on GW products. I feel I should not "reward" GW for the poor handling of their product in the past couple of years, so I am sending my message in a language that they will understand...

 

...cold, hard cash.

 

i only play since second edition but feel just like you.

up to the 4th i played DA, still have all of them, the fluff in the dex was ok but all the stuff if read until now made me stop to think about 40k. Since 4th i haven't bought one thing from GW and i'm still trying to do that. The only GW related stuff i buy comes from BL (not always happy about the things they write *legion*cough*) and i made the "mistake" to start a FW army. But so far nothing from GW, only their "better" branches

[BassWave]

Oh yeah, that reminds me. Here's a retcon for you guys. When Ferrus Manus died, a greater daemon of hatred, fury, and vengeance was created from all the emotions Ferrus was feeling at the time. Btw, that daemon is slaaneshi.

 

Also, iron hands in 40k hate Ferrus because he "failed", despite the fact that the whole reason he went to istvaan was to prove his loyalty (he was close to many of his brothers who went traitor). They also saw him as reckless for charging head first into battle. Despite the fact that the loyalists had planned this considering they would have reinforcements later and win with overwhelming force.

 

I'm an Iron Hand fan, and I abhor the clan Raukaan supplement.

[Kol Saresk]

Oh yeah, that reminds me. Here's a retcon for you guys. When Ferrus Manus died, a greater daemon of hatred, fury, and vengeance was created from all the emotions Ferrus was feeling at the time. Btw, that daemon is slaaneshi.

 

 

Who do what now?

[Legatus]

 

Overnight, everything that I loved about my Chapter is now gone - replaced with "wannabe Ultramarines" material.

 

You cringe as they make your Chapter more "Codex". I cringe as they make my Chapter less "Codex". Nobody wins.

[BassWave]

@Kol- Yup, you read that right. Apparently the supplement writing team didn't even try with the iron hands fluff, or daemon fluff for that matter.

 

Now that is an example of retcons gone bad. How about a retcon that was done in good taste. It used to be that iron hands weren't really into bionics in pre heresy. It was after the heresy that they felt they had failed because they weren't strong enough to protect all they held dear. Ferrus Manus appeared to them as a ghost/vision, telling his legion to embrace iron. From then on, iron hands mutilated themselves to get shiny limbs.

 

Since then, things have changed where iron hands are heavily robotified even in the great crusade. Forge World's explanation was that due to the legion's tactics, legionnaires sustain a lot of injuries. Iron hands aren't the type to just wait around for organic replacements to be grown in test tubes, so they just slap a bionic on to get back in the fight quicker. I like this retcon because it only accentuates the relentless attitude the tenth have.

 

However, the above is a double retcon, because black library tried to make it where iron hands in 30k are no different than in 40k, which is lazy as it shows no character development. There is no story behind any of it, other than "bionics are cool hur hur".

 

If it weren't for forge world, i'd be stuck with GW and black library fluff... *vomits uncontrollably*

[RapatoR]

Well I for one like making things bigger (8 to 500 and 10 000 to 100 000) as we currently know that the number of habitable worlds was severely underestimated in the past. I still think it underestimates how big our galaxy is.

 

One (infrequently mentioned) retcon confuses me to no end though: Why 30k Imperial Cult had to change to The Imperial Truth and Emperor went from being (kind of) spiritual leader to forbidding religion at all. The terms "crusade", "heresy" and so on are religious terms and the secular Imperium using those terms gives much less sense.

[Wade Garrett]

It gets even more baffling when you realize the Great Crusade to End All Religion depends on Tech PRIESTS of the Machine GOD for all its logistical needs.

 

Consistency. How do it work?

[Demus Ragnok]

It gets even more baffling when you realize the Great Crusade to End All Religion depends on Tech PRIESTS of the Machine GOD for all its logistical needs.

 

 

That unknowingly worship an alien god that was chained up in their basement by the same guy that wants to destroy all religion.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Overnight, everything that I loved about my Chapter is now gone - replaced with "wannabe Ultramarines" material.

You cringe as they make your Chapter more "Codex". I cringe as they make my Chapter less "Codex". Nobody wins.

Amen.

I remember when being a "Codex Chapter" was a good thing, lol.

Though technically, if we're discussing RT retcons, the original codex chapters were the Blood Angels and Iron Hands...

[Arachnid99]

I went into my local model shop looking for a new Revell battleship, I walked out with the shiny new 40K 3rd edition start box, complete with Black Templars on the cover. Since then I built up 15000 points of Black Templars only to have my Chapter effectively retconned out of existence with the new release.

Am I pissed off? Hell yes. 

Have I effectively quit 40K? Absolutely.

Does that mean I hate all retcons? No.

Some retcons, e.g. a lot of the heresy law is simply the product of expanding two page IA articles into a 20+ book series. In other areas it's changing cannon so as to fix inconsistencies and make the universe more cohesive. Its like doing surgery, if you're good 99% of the time you go in, fix something and leave them better off. 1% of the time you kill them. GW are killing the patient a lot more than 1% of the time. 

[Marshal Rohr]

RIP Black Templars

[Perrin]

I'm entirely faction-neutral, and don't collect any models anymore so retcons don't bother me much. If old lore conflicts with new lore I tend to go with the new stuff.

 

Obviously I can't really empathise how collectors like Arachnid99 feel about retcons that wipe away the very reason they got started in 40k, something they've put so much time, money and energy into, but they do have my sympathies.

[A D-B]

@Kol- Yup, you read that right. Apparently the supplement writing team didn't even try with the iron hands fluff, or daemon fluff for that matter.

 

Now that is an example of retcons gone bad. How about a retcon that was done in good taste. It used to be that iron hands weren't really into bionics in pre heresy. It was after the heresy that they felt they had failed because they weren't strong enough to protect all they held dear. Ferrus Manus appeared to them as a ghost/vision, telling his legion to embrace iron. From then on, iron hands mutilated themselves to get shiny limbs.

 

Since then, things have changed where iron hands are heavily robotified even in the great crusade. Forge World's explanation was that due to the legion's tactics, legionnaires sustain a lot of injuries. Iron hands aren't the type to just wait around for organic replacements to be grown in test tubes, so they just slap a bionic on to get back in the fight quicker. I like this retcon because it only accentuates the relentless attitude the tenth have.

 

However, the above is a double retcon, because black library tried to make it where iron hands in 30k are no different than in 40k, which is lazy as it shows no character development. There is no story behind any of it, other than "bionics are cool hur hur".

 

If it weren't for forge world, i'd be stuck with GW and black library fluff... *vomits uncontrollably*

 

Interestingly enough, that's many, many, many, many miles wide of the mark. This is a visual IP, where the models take absolute priority. If you think the Iron Hands are the visually bionic Legion because someone undercut Forge World's inviolate integrity with big, bad writer-cooties, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

 

EDIT: This didn't load properly on my phone before I hit reply, and I missed like 3/4 of your post, BW. I like FW's reasoning better, too.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'd buy a bridge over 1000 word quick reads and audiobooks if Talon of Horus and Master of Mankind are on the other side ;)

[A D-B]

I'd buy a bridge over 1000 word quick reads and audiobooks if Talon of Horus and Master of Mankind are on the other side

Jesus, me too, man. The Talon of Horus is about 2-3 days from being finished, though. I'm building up for the day's editing.

[Conn Eremon]

I'd buy a bridge over 1000 word quick reads and audiobooks if Talon of Horus and Master of Mankind are on the other side

Jesus, me too, man. The Talon of Horus is about 2-3 days from being finished, though. I'm building up for the day's editing.

So I can expect to read it by Friday then? That is how it works, right?

Because that's how I want it to work.

[BassWave]

I'm going to disagree about Templars being retconned out of existence. Only major changes are that they apparently worship the Emperor, and they went from hating all psykers, to having the same attitude as all imperials towards sanctioned psykers. Which still means you view them with suspicion, but understand their usefulness. BTs still abhor enemy witches, Xenos, etc. with just as much zeal as before. Otherwise, you are the same as before

 

From one black armored brother to another, I completely understand what you are going through. However, your fluff is still salvageable. And you get some badass stories from Black library. Be VERY greatful of that.