Sternguard vs Command Squad?

[Lysere]

 

I would assume anyone taking combi-melta is intending to aim them at AV value and try to get the melta dice.

Naturally, but if your targets are lower AV or hiding behind cover saves, then the volume of shots will win out.

 

Edit: I ran the numbers and plasma beats melta (with 2d6) against AV10 and ties against AV11. Melta wins out AV12+.

 

The main advantage of melta is even with bad rolls, (they do happen) that AP1 and the extra pen die make it easier to do major damage against vehicles. Plasma relies on average to good rolls. Besides you do have krak grenades which also work against vehicles quite well. (At least in melee) 

[Ultra Magnus]

I've been running 5 Sternguard with 5x combi meltas and 1x meltabombs (sergeant) in a drop pod with Lysander. For the same price I could take a command squad with 5x meltaguns and 5x meltabombs for the exact same price. Can anyone explain the pros/coins of each? I'm inexperienced with either unit.

For the specific use case you highlighted, the meltagun armed command squad wins hands down.

 

1. On the first round they deploy from the drop pod they are equally as deadly.

 

2. On every follow on round they continue to be an effective and distracting threat to your enemy's transports, armor, elite infantry, monstrous creatures etc. basically all the high priority targets you need removed, weakened, or opened. Sternguard are very versatile but once the combi's fire they become predominantly anti-infantry. If the enemy's infantry are still sitting in transports at that point (wave serpents) you have a problem.

 

3. Both units, being veterans base, are equal in terms of close combat capability.

 

4. The command squad opens up the potential to take an apothecary and feel no pain, which increases overall survivability for the unit but more importantly for your warlord Lysander.

 

5. Meltaguns are classified as assault weapons and after you drop, where does Lysander want to be? In assault. Sternguard are all rapid fire and so restrict Lysander to babysitting duty.

 

6. The only drop pod scenario where Sternguard are superior is if you drop 10 and combat squad them to potentially eliminate 2 separate targets round one, but them again you are no longer talking equivalent points.

[Ultramarine vet]

 

I've been running 5 Sternguard with 5x combi meltas and 1x meltabombs (sergeant) in a drop pod with Lysander. For the same price I could take a command squad with 5x meltaguns and 5x meltabombs for the exact same price. Can anyone explain the pros/coins of each? I'm inexperienced with either unit.

For the specific use case you highlighted, the meltagun armed command squad wins hands down.

 

1. On the first round they deploy from the drop pod they are equally as deadly.

 

2. On every follow on round they continue to be an effective and distracting threat to your enemy's transports, armor, elite infantry, monstrous creatures etc. basically all the high priority targets you need removed, weakened, or opened. Sternguard are very versatile but once the combi's fire they become predominantly anti-infantry. If the enemy's infantry are still sitting in transports at that point (wave serpents) you have a problem.

 

3. Both units, being veterans base, are equal in terms of close combat capability.

 

4. The command squad opens up the potential to take an apothecary and feel no pain, which increases overall survivability for the unit but more importantly for your warlord Lysander.

 

5. Meltaguns are classified as assault weapons and after you drop, where does Lysander want to be? In assault. Sternguard are all rapid fire and so restrict Lysander to babysitting duty.

 

6. The only drop pod scenario where Sternguard are superior is if you drop 10 and combat squad them to potentially eliminate 2 separate targets round one, but them again you are no longer talking equivalent points.

For number 2, you act like there will be no support whatsoever. If I'm gonna take Sternguards, you can bet I would have Predators, Devastators, and anything else that can chew out vehicles. Then the Sternguards make mince meat out of the unit that was inside the vehicle.

 

The command squad will be killed turn 2 because they pop open a vehicle and then.....what are they going to do? Die. Unless there is anti-infantry support, of course. So they are both equally useful if used correctly. 

 

Bottom line, it all depends on how War Beast plays his army. 

[Ultra Magnus]

Every unit is considered or deployed as part of a larger list and serves some purpose within that context. The point you raise about the presence of other units applies equally to either squad so essentially we are left wit the OP's question of which serves better as a melta delivery platform for the points in the scenario he outlined. I think the argument still stands that the command squad still holds up. Sternguard are a great unit but if you want to use them for multi-round, versatile anti-infantry fire, then you put them midfield and take advantage of their extra range and ammo hijinks. Putting them in a drop pod within melta range pretty much insures they are largely wiped shortly thereafter so you are not really leveraging those multi-shot capabilities to their fullest.

[Ultramarine vet]

Excellent point. I don't use sternguards in a drop pod very often. So I do suppose the Command squad has the edge there, but they will most likely be wiped out turn 2 as well. If there is only 1 drop pod in a list, the unit that goes in the drop pod is inevitably a suicide unit. They will most likely make up their points, and I will reiterate, pods are great for assassination.

[scratt]

depends on points as well and whether you need that elite slot 

[War Beast]

Excellent discussion. I try to hit a flank or rear to avoid being a suicide unit - otherwise I can't imagine doing very well trading a 200 point squad for a 115 point Fire Prism or Wave Serpent.

[Ultramarine vet]

I imagine hitting them in the rear would leave you cut off with no support. Though I have never really tried it. 

 

Also, I do have a question. Can you arm an apothecary with weapons such as power swords? He is not classified as a veteran so I don't think so.

[scratt]

no apothecary cant be armed unfortunatly

[Ultra Magnus]

The apothecary becomes a bit of dead weight as far as upgrades are concerned. Fortunately it doesn't hamper you as much in a drop pod squad because it is a short range squad to begin with and he can always choose to toss a grenade since everyone else has a special weapon. The range brackets tend to line up pretty well with Meltaguns.

[Ultramarine vet]

Dang. I wish I could give my apothecary an upgrade but oh well. What can ya do.

 

If you make one of the veterans an apothecary, that means only 4 meltaguns. Correct?

[War Beast]

Indeed. Still... 4x meltaguns, 4x meltabombs and apothecary for the same 210 points - I'm going to have to try this!

[Ultramarine vet]

Now that's a tank hunting squad!

[Lysere]

For tank hunting squads I use to love running 5-6 vanguard vets with melta bombs. Tanks have a hard time hiding from a squad like that. Of course now they aren't as much fun because no assault out of deep strike. Another fun command squad is the 4 plasma plus apothecary. Most armies hate that much plasma, and with the apothecary and a good landing spot you can be a real pain.

[Ultramarine vet]

I just kinda despise plasma because I lose several of my own troops to it. Sometimes I find it more hazardous than useful. Its really good if you don't roll 1s consistently. Like....well......me. :D 

[Cornelias]

I just kinda despise plasma because I lose several of my own troops to it. Sometimes I find it more hazardous than useful. Its really good if you don't roll 1s consistently. Like....well......me.

FnP comes into play here though :)

[minigun762]

If you're looking for a melta bomb, what about deepstriking speeders?

[War Beast]

Mainly because one of the unit's main jobs is to try and get line breaker.

[malorn24]

I got a question. in the command squad rules it says "may take any weapon on from the Melee weapon/ Ranged Weapon list." Now on the wargear list the only weapons listed under "ranged weapons" are Stormbolter, combi's, grav pistols, and plas pistols. So are the days of  quad plas gun command squad over? or am I missing something? 

[Lysere]

I got a question. in the command squad rules it says "may take any weapon on from the Melee weapon/ Ranged Weapon list." Now on the wargear list the only weapons listed under "ranged weapons" are Stormbolter, combi's, grav pistols, and plas pistols. So are the days of  quad plas gun command squad over? or am I missing something? 

They fixed it right away in the FAQ. So no it is not gone, there is no way GW would pull that one.

[malorn24]

SWEET! no ripping arms off!

[Stickeh]

I know it's outside of the OP's initial question, but another thing Sternguard have going for them over command squads is that they can be upgraded to 10 man squads. Now this pushes them up into the ~300pt mark once you start taking into account combi weapons and a transport (pod/rhino), but gives you the ability to combat squad, allowing you to target 2 different units and forcing enemy units to devote some serious firepower to deal with the unit. This is ideal if you wanted to mix combi weapons, as you can have a clearly defined role for each combat squad. If you were going to take two squads of Sternguard, it saves you 10 points on the vet sergeant built in to the squad and the cost of the transport.

[War Beast]

Due to fanatical dedication to Terminators I have almost no experience with command squads or Sternguard, so I appreciate all advice on them, even outside the original question.

[Paulochromis]

no apothecary cant be armed unfortunatly

 

 

The apothecary becomes a bit of dead weight as far as upgrades are concerned. Fortunately it doesn't hamper you as much in a drop pod squad because it is a short range squad to begin with and he can always choose to toss a grenade since everyone else has a special weapon. The range brackets tend to line up pretty well with Meltaguns.

 

Isn't this a hangover from the previous codex?

In the old codex, the Apothecary was already in the squad, and therefore the wording "Veteran can take ..." auto-excluded the Apothecary.

But in the new codex the Apothecary status is now an upgrade, so the Veteran takes a ranged/melee weapon then gets upgraded to Apothecary sequence is possible.

[Ultramarine vet]

I'm pretty sure you have to upgrade the veteran to apothecary before giving him upgraded weapons.