Starting with no units on the board

[Skylifter]

Hi,

 

this just came up and I couldn't find it in the rules or Errata: can I start a game with everything in reserve? Like with only drop podded troops, nothing else? A friend says I can't, and I believe he is right, but we failed miserably when trying to look it up.

 

 

[Demus Ragnok]

Up to half of your units may be held in reserve (rounding up). Units that must arrive via deep strike do not count toward the total (drop pods).

 

Independent characters count as a unit.

[Magpie]

Yes you can, so long as you have something on the board at the end of the first game turn you are fine.

The "auto lose" for no units on the table is only assessed at the end of a Game Turn not Player Turn. (Pg 122)

 

Drop Pod assault still works as they have to set up in reserve as Demus says. So long as everyone is in the pods or a flyer or otherwise has to be in reserve you are fine.

[Axagoras]

yep, i have written up some 11 pod lists that start with nothing on the board turn 1 and slam down 6 pods full of marines turn 1

[Dam13n]

Basically, if you want to put everything into reserve you will need a mechanic that will allow you to bring at least some of them in turn 1.

 

- Drop Pod Assault

- Deathwing Assault

 

Are the only 2 that come to mind that allow turn 1 reserves, so you'll need to have at least some units in reserve with one of those rules or you will auto-lose at the end of turn 1.

(No units on the table at the end of a game turn = you lose).

 

Of course in order to have all units in reserve, you'll also need a mechanic that exempts units from the 50% reserves rule.

 

- Drop Pods

- Flyers

- Legion of the Damned

 

Are some of the units that must start the game in reserve (and are therefore exempt from the 50% calculation).  As are any units embarked upon flying transports or drop pods before deployment.

 

It is possible, however you are going to limit your options somewhat if you want everything to start in reserve.  You'll also have to watch out for Grey Knights forces that spam Normal units of Grey Knights and Interceptor squads (they have a psychic power that means your drop pods/deathwing mishap if you deep strike too close to them.  So going second = good chance you'll lose, or find your units nullified by landing too far away to be of any use).

[Skylifter]

Thanks guys, so drop-pod assault is still a thing after all. And thanks for the page number and the bit about Grey Knights, I'll keep that in mind.

[Jolemai]

So, how does your HQ work? Lets say you have the standard Captain/Librarian/whatever, wouldn't they have to start on the board?

[Skylifter]

Jolemai, I can just attach them to a unit that has a droppod (and 9 members or less, since a droppod only has 10 slots).

[Raeven]

So, how does your HQ work? Lets say you have the standard Captain/Librarian/whatever, wouldn't they have to start on the board?

Units that are in drop pods still count to the total limit that you can keep in reserves.  So you have 10 drop pods and 1 commander, you can keep 6 units off the board.  The 10 in drop pods don't count, so you have only have 1/6 units that count towards your reserve limit.

[Skylifter]

 

So, how does your HQ work? Lets say you have the standard Captain/Librarian/whatever, wouldn't they have to start on the board?

Units that are in drop pods still count to the total limit that you can keep in reserves.  So you have 10 drop pods and 1 commander, you can keep 6 units off the board.  The 10 in drop pods don't count, so you have only have 1/6 units that count towards your reserve limit.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

 

The way I read it, units that start in their own droppod must be held in reserve, and thus they are ignored for the purpose of finding out how many units you may hold in reserve. Thus the only unit that does count towards it is the captain, and 0.5 rounded up is 1, so I may hold one of my units in reserve in addition to those that must start in reserve. I can then attach that one IC to a squad.

 

Is my reading incorrect anywhere?

[Grey Mage]

They are ignored entirely if they are in pods or flyers.

[Kristoff]

Units that are in drop pods still count to the total limit that you can keep in reserves.  So you have 10 drop pods and 1 commander, you can keep 6 units off the board.  The 10 in drop pods don't count, so you have only have 1/6 units that count towards your reserve limit.

This is incorrect.

 

First off, any units that must start the game in Reserves do not count towards the Reserves limit, BRB pg 124, RESERVES - Preparing Reserves.

 

Second, Dedicated Transport and the units they are purchased with count as the same unit for counting Reserve limits, same page and paragraph.

 

Third, any units transported in a Vehicle that must start in Reserves is also not counted towards the Reserves limit, BRB FAQ Sept2013, pg 10.

 

So, ICs do NOT count towards the Reserve limit if they are mounted in a Flyer or Drop Pod.

[Gentlemanloser]

There's a long, old, thread on this.

 

The RAW is inaccurate/ambiguous about what counts for determining the *number* of units, before you dis apply those that must start in reserves.

 

Just another example of the sub par writing of the rules in 6th.  Another section that needs to be rewritten from the ground up (if you don't think so, see Infiltrate and ICs as well...).

 

 

Are the only 2 that come to mind that allow turn 1 reserves

 

And Mordrak the GK. ;)

[Dam13n]

Oh yeah, forgot Mordrak...

[Kristoff]

The RAW is inaccurate/ambiguous about what counts for determining the *number* of units, before you dis apply those that must start in reserves.

 

Just out of curiousity, if you include the FAQ I referenced above, what is inaccurate or ambiguous for determining the *number* of units?

 

Outside of those already exempted by being required in Reserve and traveling in them:

ICs are each a separate unit: 1 each

regular units: 1 each

units with their Dedicated Transports: 1 per pair

units that are purchased together, but deploy seperately like Combat Squads and Infantry Platoons: 1 per separated unit

Drop Pods: 0 each

Units in Drop Pods: 0 each

Flyers: 0 each

Units in Flyers: 0 each

[Gentlemanloser]

They're not exempted.

 

That's the issue.

 

They're exempted from counting, but not exempted from determining the number of units you can/can't in the first place.

 

Couldn't find the thread I was thinking of, but here's another old one;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258089-reserve-requirements-and-dedicated-transports/

[Morollan]

The Reserve rules say:

 

 

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

 

 

The FAQ says

 

 

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No

 

So it would appear that we firstly count the total number of units in our army then remove any units that must start in reserve or that are transported in such units from that number. Whatever is left over we can choose not to deploy up to half (rounding up).

 

Is that correct?

[Raeven]

 

Units that are in drop pods still count to the total limit that you can keep in reserves.  So you have 10 drop pods and 1 commander, you can keep 6 units off the board.  The 10 in drop pods don't count, so you have only have 1/6 units that count towards your reserve limit.

This is incorrect.

 

First off, any units that must start the game in Reserves do not count towards the Reserves limit, BRB pg 124, RESERVES - Preparing Reserves.

 

Second, Dedicated Transport and the units they are purchased with count as the same unit for counting Reserve limits, same page and paragraph.

 

Third, any units transported in a Vehicle that must start in Reserves is also not counted towards the Reserves limit, BRB FAQ Sept2013, pg 10.

 

So, ICs do NOT count towards the Reserve limit if they are mounted in a Flyer or Drop Pod.

 

How am I incorrect?

 

A Troop unit is not a unit that must deploy via reserves, thus it adds towards the reserve limit, even if the unit purchases a drop pod as it's dedicated transport.

 

I'll create a list to show you what I am talking about.

 

HQ IC +1

Elite - Sternguard w/ Drop Pod  +1

Elite - Dreadnaught w/ Drop Pod  +1

Troop - Tactical w/ Rhino +1

Troop - Tactical w/ Drop Pod +1

Troop - Scout +1

Fast - StormTalon +0

Fast - Assault Squad w/ Drop Pod +1

Heavy Support - Storm Raven +0

 

Total units that count towards unit total - 7

Total units that can be held in reserves or "reserve limit" - 7/2 = 3.5 = 4

 

 

IC's counts against reserve limit.  4-1 = 3 reserve spots left

Scouts count against reserve limit 3-1 = 2 reserve spots left

Tactical Squad in rhino counts against reserve limit 2-1 = 1 reserve spot left

 

Sternguard deployed in drop pod - Do not count against reserve limit

Dreadnaught deployed in drop pod - Does not count against reserve limit

Troops deployed in drop pod - Does not count against reserve limit

Flyers - Does not count against reserve limit

 

With the above list, you can deploy everything in reserves.

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually, you count *every* unit.

 

Then, when figuring out how many you can place in reserves, you ignore those that must start in reserves.

 

It should be;

 

HQ IC +1

Elite - Sternguard w/ Drop Pod  +1

Elite - Dreadnaught w/ Drop Pod  +1

Troop - Tactical w/ Rhino +1

Troop - Tactical w/ Drop Pod +1

Troop - Scout +1

Fast - StormTalon +1

Fast - Assault Squad w/ Drop Pod +1

Heavy Support - Storm Raven +1

 

Total units that count towards unit total - 9

Total units that can be held in reserves or "reserve limit" - 9/2 = 4.5 = 5

 

 

Oh which, the Drop pods any any units embarked don't count towards the 5 limit.

 

Also, as per the linked thread above, while the Stormraven doesn't count, any unit embarked upon it will.  Go figure... (unless this has recently been FAQed, but I'm unaware of any)

[Kristoff]

 

 

 

 

Units that are in drop pods still count to the total limit that you can keep in reserves.  So you have 10 drop pods and 1 commander, you can keep 6 units off the board.  The 10 in drop pods don't count, so you have only have 1/6 units that count towards your reserve limit.

This is incorrect.

 

First off, any units that must start the game in Reserves do not count towards the Reserves limit, BRB pg 124, RESERVES - Preparing Reserves.

 

Second, Dedicated Transport and the units they are purchased with count as the same unit for counting Reserve limits, same page and paragraph.

 

Third, any units transported in a Vehicle that must start in Reserves is also not counted towards the Reserves limit, BRB FAQ Sept2013, pg 10.

 

So, ICs do NOT count towards the Reserve limit if they are mounted in a Flyer or Drop Pod.

 

 

 

How am I incorrect?

 

A Troop unit is not a unit that must deploy via reserves, thus it adds towards the reserve limit, even if the unit purchases a drop pod as it's dedicated transport.

 

I'll create a list to show you what I am talking about.

 

HQ IC +1

Elite - Sternguard w/ Drop Pod  +1

Elite - Dreadnaught w/ Drop Pod  +1

Troop - Tactical w/ Rhino +1

Troop - Tactical w/ Drop Pod +1

Troop - Scout +1

Fast - StormTalon +0

Fast - Assault Squad w/ Drop Pod +1

Heavy Support - Storm Raven +0

 

Total units that count towards unit total - 7

Total units that can be held in reserves or "reserve limit" - 7/2 = 3.5 = 4

 

 

IC's counts against reserve limit.  4-1 = 3 reserve spots left

Scouts count against reserve limit 3-1 = 2 reserve spots left

Tactical Squad in rhino counts against reserve limit 2-1 = 1 reserve spot left

 

Sternguard deployed in drop pod - Do not count against reserve limit

Dreadnaught deployed in drop pod - Does not count against reserve limit

Troops deployed in drop pod - Does not count against reserve limit

Flyers - Does not count against reserve limit

 

With the above list, you can deploy everything in reserves.

 

 

How are you incorrect? Drop Pods and units in Drop Pods do NOT count as part of the Reserve Limit in any way, per the Rules AND FAQ I just referenced in what you quoted! It doesn't count towards the total number of units nor the number of units you can put in Reserve in any way.

 

I will reference your list:

HQ IC +1

Elite - Sternguard w/ Drop Pod  +0

Elite - Dreadnaught w/ Drop Pod  +0

Troop - Tactical w/ Rhino +1

Troop - Tactical w/ Drop Pod +0

Troop - Scout +1

Fast - StormTalon +0

Fast - Assault Squad w/ Drop Pod +0

Heavy Support - Storm Raven +0

 

Total units that count towards unit total - 3

Total units that can be held in reserves or "reserve limit" - 3/2 = 1.5 = 2

 

This is under the assumption that the HQ IC is NOT deployed in the Storm Raven or in one of the Drop Pods. If he is, it comes to just 2 units that count towards the Reserve Limit (the Rhino Tactical Squad and the Scout Squad), so a maximum of 1 of them may be put in Reserves. 

 

Actually, you count *every* unit.

 

Then, when figuring out how many you can place in reserves, you ignore those that must start in reserves.

No, you don't. I just referenced the appropriate rules above, and they were even quoted. I'll reference them again:

 

First off, any units that must start the game in Reserves do not count towards the Reserves limit, BRB pg 124, RESERVES - Preparing Reserves.

 

Second, Dedicated Transport and the units they are purchased with count as the same unit for counting Reserve limits, same page and paragraph.

Preparing Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his Reserves to the opponent.

Third, any units transported in a Vehicle that must start in Reserves is also not counted towards the Reserves limit, BRB FAQ Sept2013, pg 10.

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No.

I should point out that nowhere does it state that the Units that must start in Reserve count towards the base number.

[Seahawk]

 

The Reserve rules say:

 

 

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

 

 

The FAQ says

 

> 

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No

 

So it would appear that we firstly count the total number of units in our army then remove any units that must start in reserve or that are transported in such units from that number. Whatever is left over we can choose not to deploy up to half (rounding up).

 

Is that correct?

 

Yes, this is absolutely the right way to do it.

 

 

Also, Necrons can do the 1st turn arrival; my friend does it quite often because we use drop pods, but it only works against other armies that have 1st turn arrivals. Everything is either in flyers or are massed Deathmark squads. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Kristof, the problem is the writing of those two sentences.

 

 

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half
of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

 

 

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of
working out how many other units may do so.

 

Noether of these two senteces tell you to ignore units that must start in reserves *for the purpose of determining the half of your army figure*.

 

First you work out the Half the army.

 

Then you can allocate half into reserves.  Of which those those must start in reserves don't count *for this total*.

 

And that total only.

 

Edit: And back to my OP, this is the major problem with this section.

 

It references a limit numerous times, but does not clarify *which* limit.  Either figuring out the original, or modifying the actual amount you put towards that limit.

 

 

Edit2: Lets say for example I have 10 'units' in my army.

 

First;

 

 

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half
of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

 

So we find ourselves with a reserve 'limit' of 5.

 

Next, we look at our army deployment and see which 5 units we wish to place in reserves.

 

 

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of
working out how many other units may do so.

 

We have a Tac squad in a Drop pod.  As that must start in reserves, instead of having 4 out of 5 left, the entire unit doesn't count and we still have a limit of 5/5.

[Morollan]

If units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so then why are you working out that number without ignoring them?

[Gentlemanloser]

I am ignoring them.

 

That's why I still have 5/5 able to be placed in reserves, rather than 4/5 (if I counted the Drop Pod).

 

See.  The ambiguity.

 

Edit: *How many others may be placed*

 

That's how many of your units you can place, because you have a finite limit you have already worked out. ;)

[Seahawk]

Then what about:

 

I have 10 units (2 characters, 3 squads w/drop pods, 3 predators)

 

I can place 5 in Reserves, and anything in the pods aren't counted against that.

 

I choose to place the characters and squads in the pods. 0 units in Reserves so far.

 

I choose to place the predators in Reserves. 3 units in Reserves now, which is under the limit of 5.

 

Full Reserves army, yes?