Is Fulgrim himself?

[Jareddm]

I see it a wall part of Slaaneshs plan - gain control of the body, break him by killing manus and when he is at his lowest offer him the power to take his body back & all the pleasures of the flesh in return for his allegiance 

I agree with this.  For a Slaaneshi daemon, taking over a body is good, but getting the body to convert willingly is significantly better.  The daemon did what it does best, it tempts.  It tempted and goaded Fulgrim with taking his body back.  It feigned shock and resistance when Fulgrim grasped Slaanesh's gifts and forced it to switch places.  It pretends to struggle and almost playfully shames Fulgrim with images of Ferrus, knowing that a few hundred/thousand years locked in a painting are nothing for an ageless daemon compared to the immense pleasure it feels in converting such a powerful being to Slaanesh.

 

Granted I would've preferred to have seen such a scene actually written out rather than having it implied.  I feel the current state leaves things too ambiguous with neither side of the debate satisfied.

[Memento Of Prospero]

what the daemon says and what is the truth are potentially 2 different things though. i, like many, prefer to think fulgrim remains trapped - perhaps the ascension thing was because fulgrim was getting some control back (guilt and all that), so the daemon required the ascension to stop him (to flip the whole real world/immaterium debate) and make the possession a permanent thing.

 

the stories have been intentionally vague about putting this question to bed for obvious reasons. Perhaps we need fulgrim to hook up with Lorgar again to see lol.

 

That doesn't work either. Once back in the immaterium, the daemon would just go back to being the essence of himself again. Possession does not make it your own, it is just a manipulation, a puppeteer. Daemon use it to experience the material word as they are too weak to manifest there themselves.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

I see it a wall part of Slaaneshs plan - gain control of the body, break him by killing manus and when he is at his lowest offer him the power to take his body back & all the pleasures of the flesh in return for his allegiance 

I agree with this.  For a Slaaneshi daemon, taking over a body is good, but getting the body to convert willingly is significantly better.  The daemon did what it does best, it tempts.  It tempted and goaded Fulgrim with taking his body back.  It feigned shock and resistance when Fulgrim grasped Slaanesh's gifts and forced it to switch places.  It pretends to struggle and almost playfully shames Fulgrim with images of Ferrus, knowing that a few hundred/thousand years locked in a painting are nothing for an ageless daemon compared to the immense pleasure it feels in converting such a powerful being to Slaanesh.

 

Granted I would've preferred to have seen such a scene actually written out rather than having it implied.  I feel the current state leaves things too ambiguous with neither side of the debate satisfied.

 

Daemons aren't that clever most of the time either. Case point : Fear to Tread.

[Clewz]

 

 

I see it a wall part of Slaaneshs plan - gain control of the body, break him by killing manus and when he is at his lowest offer him the power to take his body back & all the pleasures of the flesh in return for his allegiance 

I agree with this.  For a Slaaneshi daemon, taking over a body is good, but getting the body to convert willingly is significantly better.  The daemon did what it does best, it tempts.  It tempted and goaded Fulgrim with taking his body back.  It feigned shock and resistance when Fulgrim grasped Slaanesh's gifts and forced it to switch places.  It pretends to struggle and almost playfully shames Fulgrim with images of Ferrus, knowing that a few hundred/thousand years locked in a painting are nothing for an ageless daemon compared to the immense pleasure it feels in converting such a powerful being to Slaanesh.

 

Granted I would've preferred to have seen such a scene actually written out rather than having it implied.  I feel the current state leaves things too ambiguous with neither side of the debate satisfied.

 

Daemons aren't that clever most of the time either. Case point : Fear to Tread.

To be fair Fear to tread did little justice to daemons. There was a complete lack of horror & the 2 Gds came across as a bickering couple off a sit com. 

 

Anyway I feel Slaaneshs hand in this more than the individual daemon after all Fulgrim would of been one of his greatest prizes

[Inquisitor Kravin]

 

 

I see it a wall part of Slaaneshs plan - gain control of the body, break him by killing manus and when he is at his lowest offer him the power to take his body back & all the pleasures of the flesh in return for his allegiance 

I agree with this.  For a Slaaneshi daemon, taking over a body is good, but getting the body to convert willingly is significantly better.  The daemon did what it does best, it tempts.  It tempted and goaded Fulgrim with taking his body back.  It feigned shock and resistance when Fulgrim grasped Slaanesh's gifts and forced it to switch places.  It pretends to struggle and almost playfully shames Fulgrim with images of Ferrus, knowing that a few hundred/thousand years locked in a painting are nothing for an ageless daemon compared to the immense pleasure it feels in converting such a powerful being to Slaanesh.

 

Granted I would've preferred to have seen such a scene actually written out rather than having it implied.  I feel the current state leaves things too ambiguous with neither side of the debate satisfied.

 

Daemons aren't that clever most of the time either. Case point : Fear to Tread.

Counter example: Prospero Burns

 

I think Daemons vary in cunning/stupidity to an even greater extent than mortals.

[Vile Siren]

I am good with either option.

 

Daemon in control: I agree it is the more tragic of the options Fulgrim watching in horror as the daemon wears his body around committing evil acts against his father's imperium and such.

 

Fulgrim in control: I think this option is a different kind of tragic. While Fulgrim watching from his body is tragic in the way that Fulgrim is not actually doing the act, I kind of like the idea that Fulgrim is just so lost and gone that he doesn't care anymore about anyone or anything except his own personal gain, the old Fulgrim that wanted to spread word of Humanity's perfection over the other alien races and who just wanted to make daddy Emperor proud is dead and all that is left is a black hole of selfishness. Also I like the fact that he is haunted by Ferrus' ghost.

 

Just my thoughts and I am sure we will get more insight about the situation with Fulgrim close to the battle of Terra.

[daveNYC]

It'd be nice if we did get a filler story that, if Fulgrim is himself, explains how he got from suicidal guy who just wanted oblivion to crazy leg humping guy who wants all the drugs.

[Aegnor]

He felt bad for a bit, but after a period of grief/remorse/whatever, got on with his previous trajectory of behaviour. Not saying that in anyway to underestimate what depression etc can do to people, but there are some people who are like that. They'll feel really awful for something awful they've done, but then move on. Not untouched or unchanged, but moving past it in a sense.

 

Now, whether that grief/self-hatred accelerated his embrace of self-destruction as a form of pleasure, that's quite possible.

 

Also, lets not forget he wasn't in a vacuum while the daemon was in charge. The daemon was continuing his teaching about the glories of excess - perhaps especially as a means of negating self-loathing - the whole time and showing Fulgrim a warped view of the world. Fulgrim might have been strong enough to see that this is what it was, a twisted version of events. That doesn't mean he stopped watching it, or that he didn't find himself enjoying that twisted view.

[evilmittens]

I think Fulgrim is Fulgrim at this point.  At least, I am assuming that what we see is what we get at this point.  I was suprised at some of the arguments here actuallly made me rethink some of my assumptions though so,   It would be nice if ADB or someone could say that the Fulrim that ascended was the demon or himself..unless its a plot point for a future book.

[Unintentional Batman]

I like the idea of Fulgrim embracing his fall voluntarily, after he has come to grips with his remorse of how far he has fallen. His gimmick is, afterall, perfection - when he realizes that he has crossed all the lines during his slow posession by the demon and that there is no coming back, it's very much in chraracter for him to want to be the best at the only thing left for him to do: chaosing around. He knows he has fallen, now the only option left is be the best at being fallen, put his mind into excorcising the daemon (which someone with the willpower of a primarch, and not anymore clouded by self-doubt and remorse should be able to do pretty easily) from his head and embraching chaos willingy.

 

Haven't had time to read Reflection Cracked yet, so I can't really comment on the execution of Fulgrim's switch from moping around in the painting to Drugs and Tits and Dongs Yay! but the idea is sound. I'll believe Fulgrim himself is in the driver's seat now.