Librarian load out

[sallyoz]

Brothers

I was thinking of adding a librarian to my grey knights and after checking the codex it seems that he only comes with terminator armour.

Am I missing something or can you have a power armoured librarian. I really hope so as I think the new plastic librarian is awesome.

Please advise.

[Reichfaust]

Hail, Brother;

 

Sadly for you, the GK Libby only comes in Terminator armour flavour. If you really want to ally one into your list as a Battle Brother, you could always grab one to lead a detachment of Red Hunters (I think that's the chapter name?), their chapter trait allows them to ally with the Knights. :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I was thinking of adding a librarian to my grey knights and after checking the codex it seems that he only comes with terminator armour.

Am I missing something or can you have a power armoured librarian. I really hope so as I think the new plastic librarian is awesome.

There are no circumstances where a PA Librarian is a better choice. IMO the Terminator Libby looks pretty awesome himself. 

 

PA Librarians have always suffered from having no invul saves, middling combat stats and being stuck with their dinky force weapon. Also, in light of Codex Inquisition, their place as the 'cheap support attachment' option has diminished. 

[Quozzo]

There are no circumstances where a PA Librarian is a better choice. IMO the Terminator Libby looks pretty awesome himself.

Assisting PAGK in a storm raven? With TDA he uses up two slots.

 

On another slightly off topic note; does prescience effect cleansing flame?

 

 

EDIT: epic quote failure.

[BloodTzar]

Isn't cleansing flame auto-hit? All what prescience  does is re-roll to hit, it doesn't make stuff TL (re-roll to wound for flamer).

[Valerian]

Cleansing Flame does not have a To Hit roll, so no, Prescience wouldn't help.

 

V

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Assisting PAGK in a storm raven? With TDA he uses up two slots.

Raven has a 12-man capacity. Your point?

 

On another slightly off topic note; does prescience effect cleansing flame?

Nope. 'Cleansing Flame' is a psychic power that automatically hits all enemy models in the melee and wounds on a 4+. No to hit roll, 'Prescience' only affects the to hit roll, doesn't affect the to wound roll. 

[Quozzo]

 

 

Assisting PAGK in a storm raven? With TDA he uses up two slots.

Raven has a 12-man capacity. Your point?

 

 

You can have 2 ICs accompanying them, if not in TDA.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

There are no circumstances where a PA Librarian is a better choice.

 

Price.

 

65 point unit buffer, or 150. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You can have 2 ICs accompanying them, if not in TDA.

What other IC would you attach? Prescience Inquisitor is all you usually need, if you rolling with a Libby you're probably wanting his help in melee more than anything else (Knight Librarians have a lot of buffs for melee). Same goes for a Biomancy Red Hunter Librarian, you'd want to get into melee with him+friends, in which case TDA is a better investment.

65 point unit buffer, or 150.

Or I could 55 points and give the squad re-rolls. See, if Red Hunter Librarians had Divination, I'd see a point to the PA version (as it's a 10pt upgrade for better stats, 1 less wound but free PA and psychic hood). As is though, you're better off going cheap Prescience.

150 for the Mastery 2 TDA Biomancy Libby with storm shield is still dirt cheap. He can rek most other heroes in melee handily, he's tough as Lysander, and his buffs are amazing for our guys (Paladins love IWND and FNP).

15

[Gentlemanloser]

150 points for FnP, or a 75 point Apothecary?

 

Edit: And I think the 75 point upgrade is far too expensive anyway...

[Quozzo]

 

 

You can have 2 ICs accompanying them, if not in TDA.

What other IC would you attach?

 

 

A brotherhood champion. I'm not saying take him every time and attach him to the PAGK every time which then goes in the Raven every time. But it will be nice to have the option, if not for tactical flexibility then for fluffy reasons. Otherwise all GK's will be wearing TDA and there won't be any PAGK at all. If TDA are the better choice then surely they're better meat sheilds for the libby which can also deal some damage. TBH I don't know why it isnt an upgrade for each squad, bar the interceptors, as we have troop termies anyway.

[Gentlemanloser]

Relentless 5 Man Purgation Squads.

 

I agree it would be fluffy (and desirable), but like the lack of Storm Shields due to Force Swords (/sigh Ward just state Force Sowrds couldn't increase the invulnerable save any greater than 3++...)  we won't be seeing that anytime soon.

 

The lack of an IC able to take a PT is glaring though.

[Quozzo]

Relentless 5 Man Purgation Squads.

Good point, I never use them so it didn't occur to me. Doubling the number of psycannon shots isn't that big of a deal, jut increasr the cost of their TDA upgrade to compensate.

 

Besides, if you need to ally in other IC's then it's an obvious insight to what our codex is lacking.

 

To OP: TDA is better in almost every situation, but force swords have no benefit in PA, so each unit in PA with a NFS need to pay to upgrade them to a weapon that has a bonus. Whereas the units with TDA that are "upgrading" their weapon are merely swapping their special rule for another and so have a reduced points cost for them. I'm guessing GW couldn't figure out a way to word that so we have to consent that all ICs, bar the champion, are in TDA as it's "better".

[Brovius]

150 points for FnP, or a 75 point Apothecary?

 

Edit: And I think the 75 point upgrade is far too expensive anyway...

Actually, it's 150pts for two rolls on Biomancy, or 130pts for an Apothecary (You have to buy the Paladin first before you upgrade him) with no Storm Bolter.

[Gentlemanloser]

You already have the Paladin.

 

If you want to add FnP to the Squad it's either an extra 150 for the Libby, or an extra 75 for the Apothecary upgrade.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

150 points for FnP, or a 75 point Apothecary?

 

Edit: And I think the 75 point upgrade is far too expensive anyway...

Apothecaries cost 130. You can't trick me twice GL ;)

 

Also, you're forgetting that the Apothecary can only ever buff Paladins, whereas the RH Libby can be attached anywhere and possibly roll on Telepathy if you feel you don't need Endurance etc. 

 

A brotherhood champion. I'm not saying take him every time and attach him to the PAGK every time which then goes in the Raven every time. But it will be nice to have the option, if not for tactical flexibility then for fluffy reasons. Otherwise all GK's will be wearing TDA and there won't be any PAGK at all. If TDA are the better choice then surely they're better meat sheilds for the libby which can also deal some damage. TBH I don't know why it isnt an upgrade for each squad, bar the interceptors, as we have troop termies anyway. 

Bro Champ is sadly only a fun choice. Don't get me wrong, I love him, I think he's actually mildly relevant in 6th (in 5th he was a curiosity). But there is no way he's worth it in a competitive list, we want our HQ slots for cheap Prescience or even a TDA Inquisitor is better than him (as the re-rolls apply in the shooting phase as well, last until your next turn, and the Inquisitor is contributing a hammer and a Relentless psycannon as well). I would never put two IC's in a Raven anyway, that's way too many eggs in one basket. 

 

 

The lack of an IC able to take a PT is glaring though.

 

I know man :( if they'd given it just to the Bro Champ, that would be enough. Then Interceptors would project threat, not just be an annoyance/backfield harassment unit. 

 

Relentless 5 Man Purgation Squads.

Kek

 

You already have the Paladin.

 

If you want to add FnP to the Squad it's either an extra 150 for the Libby, or an extra 75 for the Apothecary upgrade.

Yeah, but as I mentioned before, the Apoth can only go with Paladins. Paladins are in serious trouble in 6th, almost every change and army update (fugging Tau) has reduced their viability. They're still WS5 2-wound Terminators, but it's never been easier to nuke them, and the new wound allocation rules don't help matters. Outside of Draigowing (itself a questionable build in an age of Riptides), I don't see them working. 

 

RH Libby also has an S5 AP2 force weapon (Unwieldly I know) and a storm shield, so he's functionally better as a combat character (his invul works against ranged attacks unlike a warding stave, and he has AP2 in combat versus AP3 on a stave). With 'Hammerhand' from whatever Knight unit you attach him to, he goes to S6 in melee. Can cast 'Endurance' and still have a charge leftover for force weapon insta-gib if need be. 

[Brovius]

BroChamps aren't that bad a choice, especially against that Iron Hands unkillable HQ or Lysander. They suck against Necrons though because of their stupid "we get back up from anything, because even Force Weapons remove the model as a casualty, thus allowing WBBmkii"

 

...as you can tell, I'm not fond of the Necron codex. There really should be more ways to get around their new WBB aside from D weapons

[Gentlemanloser]

Apothecaries cost 130. You can't trick me twice GL

Pfft! :P

Stand alone (like buying a single Paladin and upgrading him for some reason...) they do.

But we were talking about a Squad of Paladin with an attached IC.

You already have 5 PAladin (with 2 Psycannons) for 315.

Your options now are to attach a 150 point Libby to them, or upgrade on of them for 75 points.

150 more, or 75 more. That's the cost implications.

Sure, you can Tank with the SS lIbby, you can move him off to another Squad. He gets an extra roll. Maybe that's worth twice as much as upgrading to an Apothecary.

Personally I don't. But then I don't think the Apothecary upgrade is worth it.

If FnP went back to it's old 4+, maybe.

[Quozzo]

You're not paying for an Apothecary, you're paying for FnP which costs 75 points plus a storm bolter. BA pay 50 points for an apothecary as it comes with an extra model. They are different, but gives the squad the same rule. A Libby would be dearer, and rightly so, as the extra model comes with additions wounds, attacks and perhaps a higher Ld. The Paladin that confers FnP to the squad does not.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup.

 

(Which is just one reason I think the 75 point upgrade is too expensive...)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

BroChamps aren't that bad a choice, especially against that Iron Hands unkillable HQ or Lysander. They suck against Necrons though because of their stupid "we get back up from anything, because even Force Weapons remove the model as a casualty, thus allowing WBBmkii"

...as you can tell, I'm not fond of the Necron codex. There really should be more ways to get around their new WBB aside from D weapons

Could use Valeria if you're having that much trouble with stompy HQ's. 'Dimensional prison, enjoy your stay'.

Pfft!

Stand alone (like buying a single Paladin and upgrading him for some reason...) they do.

But we were talking about a Squad of Paladin with an attached IC.

You already have 5 PAladin (with 2 Psycannons) for 315.

Your options now are to attach a 150 point Libby to them, or upgrade on of them for 75 points.

150 more, or 75 more. That's the cost implications.

Sure, you can Tank with the SS lIbby, you can move him off to another Squad. He gets an extra roll. Maybe that's worth twice as much as upgrading to an Apothecary.

Personally I don't. But then I don't think the Apothecary upgrade is worth it.

If FnP went back to it's old 4+, maybe.

But what if I don't want Paladins, GL? I can get the RH Libby option by taking a single Scout squad.

Storm shield is a big deal, Paladins and other Knight infantry are very vulnerable to weapons that go through our armour saves. The only other one we get access to is Draigo, and he's not exactly easy to field.

So...I think we're agreed Apothecaries aren't worth it (outside of Draigostar of course). But the RH Libby is a toolbox, and he's not just for Paladins either.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh now you go changing the situation on me! :P

 

 

and his buffs are amazing for our guys (Paladins love IWND and FNP).

 

;)

 

(Don't disagree with your post above in any way!)

[Brovius]

You're not paying for an Apothecary, you're paying for FnP which costs 75 points plus a storm bolter. BA pay 50 points for an apothecary as it comes with an extra model. They are different, but gives the squad the same rule. A Libby would be dearer, and rightly so, as the extra model comes with additions wounds, attacks and perhaps a higher Ld. The Paladin that confers FnP to the squad does not.

 

Actually, they pay 50 points for a 6" FnP aura that applies to all Blood Angels within it, not just the one squad the Sang Priest is attached to.

He also gives Furious Charge too, if memory serves me correctly, and has an option for Terminator armour to boot.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Actually, they pay 50 points for a 6" FnP aura that applies to all Blood Angels within it, not just the one squad the Sang Priest is attached to.

He also gives Furious Charge too, if memory serves me correctly, and has an option for Terminator armour to boot.

1 wound though...he is amazing, but 3 x cheap Priests is generally better than 1-2 TDA Priests. They are mandatory for BA  though, even with the FC and FNP nerfs BA simply don't work without it. 

 

Btw, everytime I see your sig I die a little inside. Sister players only with they could've had Ward write their codex :(

 

 

QUOTE

I'm really *really* hoping Kelly and Goodwin get to do sisters of battle, after the awesomeness of the dark eldar release. I will be sad if Ward gets to add the "womanfist, womansword and womanammo" as new armoury entries. Ward's tendency to keep doing this is getting ridiculous..