Rohaen Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 In a recent game tourney at our local game store, our resident meta-gamer applied "Those are the rules as written bro, don't hate me for using them" tactics that blew my mind. I can't imagine this is the intended use, though I could not find a reference in rules to challenge him with. Curious to get your thoughts on this - maybe I'm wrong and this is a legit usage.... The scenario: He deploys a TFC into the ground floor of a 3 story building. The TFC and Techmarine operator are wedged so far into the structure that the barrel of the TFC is milimeters away from one wall, and both the operator and TFC are wholly under the roof/floor of the 2nd story, and there is a solid wall (no doors or windows) obstructing the right side of the TFC. The left edge of the TFC was the table edge and , from a top-down stand point, the TFC and operator both were fully under/inside this structure. Even with a pivot, there was no logical means by which the operator could shoot this cannon downfield to the other side of the board in my (and others') opinion. He then proceeds to rain TFC rounds on enemy units claiming indirect fire allows this. We questioned the legitimacy of this - saying that sure indirect fire allows you to not have LOS, though you'd clearly have to be able to shoot the gun - presumably upward, so that it could arc and fire down range. As is, his cannon could not fire without 1) blowing itself up and 2) blowing up the building he was castling his men in. He claimed this was exactly how indirect fire was written and totally legitimate to use. I raised the point that, by extension, his logic implied that a indirect fire could magically be used to shoot out of a completely enclosed box. He smiled and continued to use the cannon in this fashion for the remainder of the game. I'd love to know of some FAQ or rule that prevents this if you know of one. Otherwise, is this a tactic that other's are seeing in use? Seemed cheesy to me and sort of takes the fun out of an otherwise enjoyable game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Watching this thread from a distance, because without having my book on me to reference, I actually do think he might be right, and that your magical shooting out of a box scenario might be possible. Not that it makes the situation any more pleasant or any less unsavoury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I have to agree with the guy as much as I hate it. That is how the rules are written in the book and that is how it should be played. The box scenario would work because of the rule because of RAW, I don't know the fluff on the TFC but lets take Tau SMS for example. In that case, RAI would indicate that as long as you're not shooting at a wall it can work (say if you're shooting off the map but that's because they're guided missiles.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Legal? yes. Cheesy? Oh hell yes. The normal response to this level of WAAC is to say, "well done. Good game. I concede." Then pick your models and see if someone else wants a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 It is entirely possible and legal. I will say that terrain needs to have a pretty large second floor to pull that off though. I've never actually had a game where I could actually do that due to the size of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Yeah, seems like one of those things the completely overlooked when writing the rule. I'm with everyone else who says it's legal (but obviously cheesy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 In my opinion it would depend if the structure was a building/fortification or a ruin? Did you agree with your opponent beforehand? If it was a building/fortification did it have any fire access points? If it was a ruin then your opponent was quite correct, all he is doing is firing from within "difficult terrain that provides a 4+ cover save". Now this part is taken within the context of moving through walls of a ruin, but can equally be applied to shooting: "Should troops be able to move through walls if there is no door? That's really down to what you and your opponent decide. It's perfectly acceptable to assume the combatants on both sides have brought plenty of cutting tools, acidic disintegrators or naked ferocity to muscle their way through any wall so foolish as to block their path. Indeed, the normal rules for moving through difficult terrain allow you to do just this." So it's perfectly reasonable to assume his techmarine made a suitable hole in the wall for the TFC to fire out of. I guess the moral of that game is to agree with your opponent beforehand on what terrain is. On the flip side, if you had targetted him with a weapon that ignores cover then it would have been a dead techmarine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 On the flip side, if you had targetted him with a weapon that ignores cover then it would have been a dead techmarine. Can't target, as there's no LoS. Unless you're using another Indirect fire weapon. Edit: You also couldn't assault the Techmarine either. Edit2: Time to build your own 'ruins' and bring them to games. Just make sure the ruined wall/s are placed on board edges and you're set! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 On the flip side, if you had targetted him with a weapon that ignores cover then it would have been a dead techmarine. Can't target, as there's no LoS. Unless you're using another Indirect fire weapon. I was playing a game with my small Tau force last week against Tyranids. My opponent placed his Venomthropes out of LOS behind a ruin and was extremely surprised when 12 Smart Missiles from my Broadside team zoomed round the corner of the ruin and slammed into them, also ignoring their cover and armour saves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Yeah, but Tau are hax. ;) For a PA solution GK Purgation Squads could use Astral Aim to shoot the Techy. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greggles Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If the structure is a building...you can blow it up. If the structure is "ruins", then you treat it as difficult terrain in terms of movement and assaulting. I'd always assume the tfire cannon has smart bullets, considering the way it works. Techmarine could probably point the thing straight up, and fire up and over the ruins to hit a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If the structure is a building...you can blow it up. If the structure is "ruins", then you treat it as difficult terrain in terms of movement and assaulting. I'd always assume the tfire cannon has smart bullets, considering the way it works. Techmarine could probably point the thing straight up, and fire up and over the ruins to hit a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If it was a building, the Thunderfire unit would not be able to enter it. Only Infantry can enter Buildings, as they use Transport rules for such purposes, and the Thunderfire unit is Artillery, even the Techmarine alone. Still, a pertinent question for IG Mortar Teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 As all said, perfectly legal. If it was a ruin then your opponent was quite correct, all he is doing is firing from within "difficult terrain that provides a 4+ cover save". To be technical, this is not true. The ground floor is area terrain and provides a 5+ cover save. The upper floors are open and don't provide any cover save. The walls provide a 4+ cover save and are difficult terrain. Going up and down floors is difficult terrain. The more you know! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If the structure is "ruins", then you treat it as difficult terrain in terms of movement and assaulting. Except you can't move thorugh it as that would bring you within 1" of an enemy. And you can't charge for an assault, as you have no LoS tot he target unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If the structure is "ruins", then you treat it as difficult terrain in terms of movement and assaulting. Except you can't move thorugh it as that would bring you within 1" of an enemy. And you can't charge for an assault, as you have no LoS tot he target unit. If your group accepts moving through walls you could charge through a window. If there are none then go around a bit and get behind. You could also use assault marines, you know, those guys who don't care much about walls when moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 You still can't move through the window, if it would take you within 1" of the Techmarine. You can only do that by charging, which you can't as they're out of LoS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Only if he's right next to the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greggles Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 There is going to be "some placement" on the other side of the walls which allows you to move into the area, then see the marine, then assault said techmarine. The techmarine and thunderfire cannon model is not the size of a stompa. It can't possibly block two complete walls and prevent you from placing any model there. Something to keep in mind for future games. Use the proper rules for placing terrain, and choosing sides. This will snip these issues in the bud. If they still manage a magical setup with the thunderfire cannon.... Use outflanking or infiltrating units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Depends on the terrain piece really. Going by the OP it was a very tight fit. No room to move into it. Especially if you're making the terrain yourself. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Not legal. You don't need LOS- but you would need line of fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Not legal. You don't need LOS- but you would need line of fire What is this line of fire you refer to? I don't see it in the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Not legal. You don't need LOS- but you would need line of fire What is this line of fire you refer to? I don't see it in the rulebook. I believe he is referring to how for example, sponson weapons can't fire sideways out of the barrel AKA, they can only shoot in a certain area so I assume he means that if the gun can't actually face what it's shooting at, it can't shoot at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Artillery aren't vehicles, don't have facings, and are expressly noted as not requiring LoS if they are Barrage. They don't need to turn to be pointing towards a unit they are shooting, just like most other minis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greggles Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 No room to move into it. Especially if you're making the terrain yourself. I believe the ork players have a term for this. "Dread socking". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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