Indirect Fire Shenanigans

[Rapture747]

Getting hung on on the potential 'fluff' or realistic explanations is a waste of time as a single sentence solves the issue (e.g. the shells go through the walls and detonate later - just like certain moden munitions are capable of). I don't see how the tactic complained of is any 'cheesier' than walking through walls. It is fair, it is not unreasonable, and it is not difficult to counter (just deepstrike, infililtrate, or outflank behind the ruin).

 

Although it is hard to visualize the terrain piece that is the source of the trouble. If it was custom built to take advantage of this situation, then you have an issue. That said, a variety of terrain that allows all players to take advantage of any rules that their army incorporates is the best way to play the game.

[Ushtarador]

According to the rules, this is perfectly legal. On the other hand, most tournaments around here (Europe) have houseruled that, simply put, if they can't fire at you, you also can't fire at them! If I am not mistaken, even the European Championship has ruled it that way, so you might consider introducing that rule in your store as well ;)

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

According to the rules, this is perfectly legal. On the other hand, most tournaments around here (Europe) have houseruled that, simply put, if they can't fire at you, you also can't fire at them! If I am not mistaken, even the European Championship has ruled it that way, so you might consider introducing that rule in your store as well

So barrage weapons are useless in these tournaments then?

[Ming]

Overall, the TFC player was within the rules, but would not be the kind of player I'd go against.  Did he place that terrain object/box specifically to deny you access to shooting at it or assaulting it by any means ever?  That is WAAC behavior.  Overall, hope you still won the game. He might as well have just declared it was off-board artillery.

 

But hey, I've seen all sorts of weird stuff in gamesover the years. Not too surprised.  IIRR when I watched the first NOVA games live streamed, for all the hype about terrain, there were center LOS blocking pieces that were open on one side and facing one player, and those pieces gave someone an advantage.  I've seen players drive over walls, drive through walls, and even drive tanks on top of wrecked tanks. Stuff I'd never want to pull in a game is done all the time.  Overall, it breaks that implied player contract to have a good time first. 

 

I always set terrain to a natural feel or narrative of the battle, not in set patterns, and certainly not in a fashion that was designed to grant one player an advantage.  In a recent game, we found one piece of terrain (a building) was up against a table edge splitting the opponents deployment zone.  We decided to move the building in the width of a vehicle to give him the flexibility in deployment for a better game. 

 

In this case certainly, the TFC player was using the structure essentially as a building.  If it is totally intact on all facing on the table, it is a building and not a ruin.  In that case, you could have stopped him and said that the building rules would then apply, and you could then work to drop the building on top of the hidden unit.  Doing so is not easy, but it would have been a fairer situation than the one you were placed in. 

 

As many have said before, after terrain is set, go over the exact saves and such. That way you can mitigate the surprises.

What's next?  TFCs on a Skyshield landing pad being used to indirectly attack units that deep struck on the ground level below them? More than likely...

[Gentlemanloser]

 

IIRR when I watched the first NOVA games live streamed, for all the hype about terrain, there were center LOS blocking pieces that were open on one side and facing one player, and those pieces gave someone an advantage.

 

I remember this being the case when Stelek played a GK list for the Relic mission.

 

The GK player bamphed a NDK into the centre terrain peice (the open side was facing him), and hid inside it holding the Relic.

 

As the centre peice was large enough to totally block LoS on the three sides facing Stelek, he couldn't shoot it, nor could he assault it.

 

Unless he managed to cross the majoirty of the board and get behind the terrain so as to view the open side.

 

Which (for whatever reasons) he was unable to do.

 

Which lost him the game.

[Fibonacci]

 I've seen players drive over walls, drive through walls, and even drive tanks on top of wrecked tanks

If it wasn't a ruins before, it is afterwards.

 

Tanks bashing through walls, over baracades and crushing other wreaked vehicles is part of the fun, cineamatic feel of the game to me.

[Seahawk]

It very much is. Any model of any kind may move right through walls of ruins; it's clearly stated right on page 99 that this is the standard way to play. It's not gamey, not "that guy" behavior, it's standard stuff. 

 

 

Unless he managed to cross the majoirty of the board and get behind the terrain so as to view the open side.

He shouldn't have agreed to play it that way, given how unfair it was to him.

 

 

 

I've seen players drive over walls, drive through walls, and even drive tanks on top of wrecked tanks. Stuff I'd never want to pull in a game is done all the time.

Why do you think this is bad behavior when it is written to be played that way, and even encouraged in the name of "cinematic" play?

[Gentlemanloser]

IIRC it was terrain set up at a NOVA tournament.

 

There wasn't really any choice.

[Seahawk]

You have to play with the building, sure, but they should have known that standard rules are that you can walk through them (unless NOVA said you can't...).

Otherwise, I wouldn't rate them as good tournament players.

Though there are too many unaccounted for details that we don't know about that led to the outcome.

[Gentlemanloser]

Couldn't walk through because the presence of the NDK behind the wall stopped that.  Was a close fit for the NDK inside the terrain piece, and you can't move within 1" of an enemy mini.

 

And Stelek couldn't charge it either, no LoS.

[Morollan]

According to Stelek the TO changed/clarified the rules for the terrain mid-game. Or some other excuse for why it was impossible for his 100% shooting, 0% melee army was incapable of shfting something it couldn't shoot.

[Gentlemanloser]

Still, I think it's bogus that any terrain would allow you to hide a DreadKnight (or another mini of it's size) out of LoS from all sides apart from your own.

 

And stop people assaulting it either.

 

IIRC there was talk about Tank shocking it out of hiding, but that was the rule clarified/changed mid game by the TO.

 

I'm sure a TO also ruled and accepted the position of the terrain before the start of the game.

 

But this is getting a little off topic now. ;)

[Dam13n]

While I'm enjoying watching you guys explore the rules using your imaginations, and that video was rather cool.

 

Could we try to keep this an on-topic rules-based discussion, please.

 

If there are no further rules-based debates to be had, it may be best to let this thread lie.

[Ushtarador]

According to the rules, this is perfectly legal. On the other hand, most tournaments around here (Europe) have houseruled that, simply put, if they can't fire at you, you also can't fire at them! If I am not mistaken, even the European Championship has ruled it that way, so you might consider introducing that rule in your store as well

So barrage weapons are useless in these tournaments then?

Maybe I didn't word that correctly enough: If a model can't be hit by a barrage weapon, it can't fire a barrage weapon either. You just can't fire if there's a roof in the way. :)